July 17, 2021
The Unvaccinated Dead
Timothy Birdnow
On Facebook a woman named Wendy bleated about the horrors of the unvaccinated, as though they were some sort of zombie populace and we were facing a zombie apocalypse.
She said:
Unfortunately the unvaccinated are doing great harm. They are keeping the virus circulating and mutating. All over the US hospitals are reporting that almost all new cases are among the unvaccinated. Something must be done.
I retort:
Wendy Goldman you say "Unfortunately the unvaccinated are doing great harm. They are keeping the virus circulating and mutating. "
How does that work? Do you not realize that the vaccinated are the ones putting evolutionary pressure on the organism to mutate, not the other way around? As long as the standard Wuhan variant is able to infect people it will NOT mutate. It is when it becomes more difficult to infect people that a virus must mutate to survive.
This vaccine does not keep you from being infected, nor being contagious, they say. It keeps you from getting sick with it. That is a huge difference. You are still shedding viruses if you catch this while vaccinated, or so they tell us. https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/can-you-spread-covid-after-receiving-vaccine/2478894/
But since you have been vaccinated you are now a petri dish for this virus, and it has reason to mutate.
Yes, there is such a thing as herd immunity, and we would have had it by now had we not locked down and spread out for the three week "flatten the curve" shutdown that stretched out over a year. People need to get this and get over it and be done with it. The at risk population should have been protected, and they are the ones in need of vaccinations. It was stupid to try to hide everyone from this virus, which has had plenty of time to move through the population and at the same time to mutate.
I guess since the flu mutates every season that means EVERYONE must get the vaccination, and then there would be no influenza? It doesn't work the way you think.
Viruses mutate all the time. And they may become more virulent at first, but there is evolutionary pressure on them to become less dangerous; a really dangerous disease dies out as it kills off it's hosts. It doesn't matter whether the public reaches herd immunity through infection or vaccination; in the end the virus will still mutate, and the public will still have herd immunity one way or another.
What are you willing to surrender for the illusion of safety? It seems you are willing to turn the whole world into a police state for this illusion and your own fears.
We have had far worse than Covid. The Spanish Flu was far, far worse and the world did not shut down pending a vaccine. For that matter, this isn't much worse (if it is worse at all) than the pandemic of '57. We know there is a lot of inflation of case numbers, for instance. They didn't have that then. And adjusted for population growth I suspect this is no worse and maybe better. But we didn't have this panic.
This disease was politicized from the beginning and there is a sizable number of people who have profited handsomely both politically and financially from it.
Wendy you seem to think we are in some sort of zombie apocalypse and the unvaccinated are the walking dead. Nothing could be further from the truth. This disease has a mortality rate of just 0.1%. Get that? This is not an especially lethal disease. It's not the Black Death. But we are acting as though it is. Almost all the deaths have been people who are elderly, obese, or have serious comorbidities. Yes, some are healthy but influenza takes as many of the healthy as this disease.
You have been imbibing too much panic porn.
On Facebook a woman named Wendy bleated about the horrors of the unvaccinated, as though they were some sort of zombie populace and we were facing a zombie apocalypse.
She said:
Unfortunately the unvaccinated are doing great harm. They are keeping the virus circulating and mutating. All over the US hospitals are reporting that almost all new cases are among the unvaccinated. Something must be done.
I retort:
Wendy Goldman you say "Unfortunately the unvaccinated are doing great harm. They are keeping the virus circulating and mutating. "
How does that work? Do you not realize that the vaccinated are the ones putting evolutionary pressure on the organism to mutate, not the other way around? As long as the standard Wuhan variant is able to infect people it will NOT mutate. It is when it becomes more difficult to infect people that a virus must mutate to survive.
This vaccine does not keep you from being infected, nor being contagious, they say. It keeps you from getting sick with it. That is a huge difference. You are still shedding viruses if you catch this while vaccinated, or so they tell us. https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/can-you-spread-covid-after-receiving-vaccine/2478894/
But since you have been vaccinated you are now a petri dish for this virus, and it has reason to mutate.
Yes, there is such a thing as herd immunity, and we would have had it by now had we not locked down and spread out for the three week "flatten the curve" shutdown that stretched out over a year. People need to get this and get over it and be done with it. The at risk population should have been protected, and they are the ones in need of vaccinations. It was stupid to try to hide everyone from this virus, which has had plenty of time to move through the population and at the same time to mutate.
I guess since the flu mutates every season that means EVERYONE must get the vaccination, and then there would be no influenza? It doesn't work the way you think.
Viruses mutate all the time. And they may become more virulent at first, but there is evolutionary pressure on them to become less dangerous; a really dangerous disease dies out as it kills off it's hosts. It doesn't matter whether the public reaches herd immunity through infection or vaccination; in the end the virus will still mutate, and the public will still have herd immunity one way or another.
What are you willing to surrender for the illusion of safety? It seems you are willing to turn the whole world into a police state for this illusion and your own fears.
We have had far worse than Covid. The Spanish Flu was far, far worse and the world did not shut down pending a vaccine. For that matter, this isn't much worse (if it is worse at all) than the pandemic of '57. We know there is a lot of inflation of case numbers, for instance. They didn't have that then. And adjusted for population growth I suspect this is no worse and maybe better. But we didn't have this panic.
This disease was politicized from the beginning and there is a sizable number of people who have profited handsomely both politically and financially from it.
Wendy you seem to think we are in some sort of zombie apocalypse and the unvaccinated are the walking dead. Nothing could be further from the truth. This disease has a mortality rate of just 0.1%. Get that? This is not an especially lethal disease. It's not the Black Death. But we are acting as though it is. Almost all the deaths have been people who are elderly, obese, or have serious comorbidities. Yes, some are healthy but influenza takes as many of the healthy as this disease.
You have been imbibing too much panic porn.
Posted by: Timothy Birdnow at
09:05 AM
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Post contains 648 words, total size 4 kb.
1
"As long as the standard Wuhan variant is able to infect people it will NOT mutate. It is when it becomes more difficult to infect people that a virus must mutate to survive.â€
No, Timothy, that not only implies intelligence to the virus (that it "knows†that there is difficulty infecting hosts), but it implies community knowledge (that it can communicate to other viruses that the difficulty exists).
The virus cannot mutate outside of a host. It mutates when it replicates, and it must be inside a host in order to do that. It does not matter whether that host is vaccinated ot not. The vaccine does not alter the behavior of the virus in any way, shape or form. It merely "educates†your immune system to kill the virus more quickly, before it can make you sick.
The virus either lives or dies in your body. If it lives it can, and sometimes does mutate. Vaccination reduces mutation indirectly, because it reduces the number of replications that occur before the virus is killed by your immune system. Vaccination, or lack thereof, is utterly irrelevant to mutations.
No, Timothy, that not only implies intelligence to the virus (that it "knows†that there is difficulty infecting hosts), but it implies community knowledge (that it can communicate to other viruses that the difficulty exists).
The virus cannot mutate outside of a host. It mutates when it replicates, and it must be inside a host in order to do that. It does not matter whether that host is vaccinated ot not. The vaccine does not alter the behavior of the virus in any way, shape or form. It merely "educates†your immune system to kill the virus more quickly, before it can make you sick.
The virus either lives or dies in your body. If it lives it can, and sometimes does mutate. Vaccination reduces mutation indirectly, because it reduces the number of replications that occur before the virus is killed by your immune system. Vaccination, or lack thereof, is utterly irrelevant to mutations.
Posted by: Bill H at July 17, 2021 07:25 PM (/sW5m)
2
No Bill, I did not say the virus somehow communicates. I said EVOLUTIONARY pressure, meaning the virus has to reproduce in a different fashion to successfully inhabit an organism's body, and that happens when an organism is resistant to a particular strain. It's why both the influenza virus and the cold virus come back year after year; they are always mutating because people become immune to the previous strain.
And, as they tell us, someone infected with Covid is still shedding viruses, even when vaccinated, it means the mutants are moving through the general population. Otherwise there would be no multiple-strain viruses in the first place.
And, as they tell us, someone infected with Covid is still shedding viruses, even when vaccinated, it means the mutants are moving through the general population. Otherwise there would be no multiple-strain viruses in the first place.
Posted by: Timothy Birdnow at July 19, 2021 06:37 AM (FF5rU)
3
"the virus has to reproduce in a different fashion to successfully inhabit an organism's body,â€
Right. The mutation is caused by a change in the virus as it reproduces, which it does inside a cell in the host. It doesn’t do that "to successfully inhabit the host’s body†because it already is inhabiting the host’s body when it reproduces.
It doesn’t do it because the "host is immune.†The reproduction is a cellular process and is unaffected by the overall immune process. The hosts immunity affects nothing other than how quickly the host marshals antibodies, T-cells and other measures to kill the virus. It has no effect whatever at the cellular level, that is on how an individual cell functions.
A virus mutates because that is what viruses do. Because they cannot reproduce by themselves, but must use host cells from the host body in order to do so, viral reproduction is an inherently imperfect process.
Cold viruses and flu viruses change dramatically because there are actually hundreds of cold viruses and several flu viruses, and they combine and recombine with each other every year.
Right. The mutation is caused by a change in the virus as it reproduces, which it does inside a cell in the host. It doesn’t do that "to successfully inhabit the host’s body†because it already is inhabiting the host’s body when it reproduces.
It doesn’t do it because the "host is immune.†The reproduction is a cellular process and is unaffected by the overall immune process. The hosts immunity affects nothing other than how quickly the host marshals antibodies, T-cells and other measures to kill the virus. It has no effect whatever at the cellular level, that is on how an individual cell functions.
A virus mutates because that is what viruses do. Because they cannot reproduce by themselves, but must use host cells from the host body in order to do so, viral reproduction is an inherently imperfect process.
Cold viruses and flu viruses change dramatically because there are actually hundreds of cold viruses and several flu viruses, and they combine and recombine with each other every year.
Posted by: Bill H at July 19, 2021 08:15 AM (/sW5m)
4
"the virus has to reproduce in a different fashion to successfully inhabit an organism's body,â€
And, again, that statement attributes purpose to the virus’ mutation. It mutates mindlessly, not for the purpose of "successfully inhabit[ing] an organism's body.â€
And, again, that statement attributes purpose to the virus’ mutation. It mutates mindlessly, not for the purpose of "successfully inhabit[ing] an organism's body.â€
Posted by: Bill H at July 19, 2021 08:18 AM (/sW5m)
5
I agree Bill, and a virus only reproduces inside a cell. It's what viruses do; they hijack the cell mechanisms for their own purpose (I am not in any way saying they are sentient which you keep insisting is my claim. These are purely blind processes, but we may as well say this unless we want to get very technical.)
Again, those who are vaccinated are still shedding virus to a degree, and those viruses are more likely to be mutated because they are the ones that survive the ramped-up immune responses.
Bill, I agree in large part with you but I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this. I pointed out influenza precisely because it mutates every year and that wouldn't happen unless it was getting inside a host (us) and mutating there. It mutates to survive in a host. It may be Darwin's Natural Selection or some other process, but in the end it only mutates out of a need to survive in a host that is maybe become resistant to it.
Again, those who are vaccinated are still shedding virus to a degree, and those viruses are more likely to be mutated because they are the ones that survive the ramped-up immune responses.
Bill, I agree in large part with you but I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this. I pointed out influenza precisely because it mutates every year and that wouldn't happen unless it was getting inside a host (us) and mutating there. It mutates to survive in a host. It may be Darwin's Natural Selection or some other process, but in the end it only mutates out of a need to survive in a host that is maybe become resistant to it.
Posted by: Timothy Birdnow at July 20, 2021 06:32 AM (SCgs4)
6
I’ll try one more time, Timothy.
"…mutates out of a need to survive in a host that is maybe become resistant to it.†You are still attributing purpose to the viral mutation ("out of a needâ€) and vaccinated host is not resistant to the virus.
The virus can get into a vaccinated host just as easily, and can reproduce just as easily. The vaccine does not in any way affect the ability of the virus to reproduce within cells in the host's body. No affect whatever.
The host’s immune system kills the virus. It does not alter them in any way. It does not cause them to mutate. It does not prevent them from reproducing. It kills them dead. It kills some of them before they enter cells and reproduce, and it kills some of them after they have done that. But the only thing it does is kill them
The ones that are not killed are shed by the host. Whether or not the host is vaccinated is irrelevant to shedding. Unkilled viruses will be shed. They will not be altered by a vaccine if the person is vaccinated.
The vaccine merely "educates†the immune system so that it can respond faster to the presence of a virus. It does not alter in any way or manner the way the immune system functions, it merely allows it to get cranking much sooner. It can start killing virus within a couple of hours after the first virus is detected, killing them off before they make you sick.
The vaccine means your immune system starts the fight in a matter of as little as two hours, instead of needing a couple of days to start ramping up as it does for an unvaccinated host. It does nothing, absolutely nothing else.
"…mutates out of a need to survive in a host that is maybe become resistant to it.†You are still attributing purpose to the viral mutation ("out of a needâ€) and vaccinated host is not resistant to the virus.
The virus can get into a vaccinated host just as easily, and can reproduce just as easily. The vaccine does not in any way affect the ability of the virus to reproduce within cells in the host's body. No affect whatever.
The host’s immune system kills the virus. It does not alter them in any way. It does not cause them to mutate. It does not prevent them from reproducing. It kills them dead. It kills some of them before they enter cells and reproduce, and it kills some of them after they have done that. But the only thing it does is kill them
The ones that are not killed are shed by the host. Whether or not the host is vaccinated is irrelevant to shedding. Unkilled viruses will be shed. They will not be altered by a vaccine if the person is vaccinated.
The vaccine merely "educates†the immune system so that it can respond faster to the presence of a virus. It does not alter in any way or manner the way the immune system functions, it merely allows it to get cranking much sooner. It can start killing virus within a couple of hours after the first virus is detected, killing them off before they make you sick.
The vaccine means your immune system starts the fight in a matter of as little as two hours, instead of needing a couple of days to start ramping up as it does for an unvaccinated host. It does nothing, absolutely nothing else.
Posted by: Bill H at July 20, 2021 09:14 AM (/sW5m)
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