October 21, 2021
Pre-Columbian Visitors to America
Bob Clasen
Vikings were in Newfoundland in 1021.
John McCormick adds:
They didn’t last long, and we already knew this. Furthermore, there’s plenty of evidence that others were here long before the Vikings, including the Romans, who made it to Brazil in the second century BC. They may have also gone up the Mississippi River.
Tim replies:
I have little doubt about the Vikings coming. Their ships were superior in every way to any that went before them, and they moved across the sea in the North so land was never that far.
I have my doubts about the rest. Roman ships were never able to get far from land. They didn't have the technology to sail long distances, and they didn't have the ability to tack into the wind. They couldn't feed a galley of slaves to row. Crossing the mid Atlantic doesn't seem feasible to me.
The Pacific was different. The Polynesians did it. BUT they island hopped. We should find evidence of Indians or Chinese doing likewise if they did come to America via that route.
I just don't buy it. The native cultures in America show positive signs of extreme isolation. None of them had the wheel, for instance, and nobody would forget THAT once they encountered it. It is way too useful. Ditto metal tools.
The Vikings had a very limited contact with a very primitive native population and so the technology of the day was never shown to them (probably). That is quite different from Romans landing in Brazil. Romans always built stuff.
Color me skeptical.
Vikings were in Newfoundland in 1021.
John McCormick adds:
They didn’t last long, and we already knew this. Furthermore, there’s plenty of evidence that others were here long before the Vikings, including the Romans, who made it to Brazil in the second century BC. They may have also gone up the Mississippi River.
Tim replies:
I have little doubt about the Vikings coming. Their ships were superior in every way to any that went before them, and they moved across the sea in the North so land was never that far.
I have my doubts about the rest. Roman ships were never able to get far from land. They didn't have the technology to sail long distances, and they didn't have the ability to tack into the wind. They couldn't feed a galley of slaves to row. Crossing the mid Atlantic doesn't seem feasible to me.
The Pacific was different. The Polynesians did it. BUT they island hopped. We should find evidence of Indians or Chinese doing likewise if they did come to America via that route.
I just don't buy it. The native cultures in America show positive signs of extreme isolation. None of them had the wheel, for instance, and nobody would forget THAT once they encountered it. It is way too useful. Ditto metal tools.
The Vikings had a very limited contact with a very primitive native population and so the technology of the day was never shown to them (probably). That is quite different from Romans landing in Brazil. Romans always built stuff.
Color me skeptical.
Posted by: Timothy Birdnow at
09:42 AM
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1
As you say, and far as we know, the Romans didn't have sailing technology that could have gotten them to the New World, much less into a bay. But those amphorae are there. Did they get there on a ship from some other country, having been acquired through trading? It's too bad that Brazil has slammed shut the door to exploration. It would be interesting to see what's in those amphorae!
Posted by: Dana Mathewson at October 21, 2021 10:22 AM (l1227)
2
That's my guess Dana; they were traded at a later date.
The Romans did sail down the coast of Africa but they were always close to shore. They also did not find the Cape of Good Hope. Had they did that they would likely have traded with India and China directly, and perhaps colonized India.
The Romans would have colonized Brazil had they found it. Or at least remembered being there.
The Romans did sail down the coast of Africa but they were always close to shore. They also did not find the Cape of Good Hope. Had they did that they would likely have traded with India and China directly, and perhaps colonized India.
The Romans would have colonized Brazil had they found it. Or at least remembered being there.
Posted by: Timothy Birdnow at October 22, 2021 08:43 AM (+UUDH)
3
The Romans obviously had no idea of navigation. Surprised they didn't pick that up from the Greeks, who apparently did -- how else would they have gotten all those ships from the Greek mainland to Troy -- and back again? That's a bit of a haul.
Posted by: Dana Mathewson at October 22, 2021 01:09 PM (djD2v)
4
The Phoenecians were even better sailors than the Greeks, and the Carthaginians were Phoenicians, which is how they built their empire. The Romans learned a lot about naval tactics from the Punic Wars, but never were anywhere as good at sailing as the Carthaginians. They won by having ships with huge numbers of galley slaves to row, and hooks to capture enemy ships then send soldiers to beat them in combat on those ships. They didn't outmaneuver or outrun the Carthaginians.
But there really is little in the way of evidence Carthage ever did anything like this either.
I saw a show on Quest (a repeat of a National Geographic special) about possible Carthaginians in America. I was not convinced. There was a village up in the Andes with white Indians who genetic testing showed had a strong admixture of Portuguese blood and this they used as proof (along with a similarity of ancient architectural style) that Carthaginian exiles from Iberia moved up the Amazon into the high country. I just don't think they would have forgotten things like the wheel.
And why go all the way to the Andes when you could settle the coast?
At any rate it makes makes a good yarn, but I think alternative explanations are better. Occam's razor applies, in my opinion.
But there really is little in the way of evidence Carthage ever did anything like this either.
I saw a show on Quest (a repeat of a National Geographic special) about possible Carthaginians in America. I was not convinced. There was a village up in the Andes with white Indians who genetic testing showed had a strong admixture of Portuguese blood and this they used as proof (along with a similarity of ancient architectural style) that Carthaginian exiles from Iberia moved up the Amazon into the high country. I just don't think they would have forgotten things like the wheel.
And why go all the way to the Andes when you could settle the coast?
At any rate it makes makes a good yarn, but I think alternative explanations are better. Occam's razor applies, in my opinion.
Posted by: Timothy Birdnow at October 23, 2021 08:06 AM (chrEE)
5
Yes, I agree, Tim, but it's good that scientists are working on things like this. Without them, we'd never have learned that the Vikings made settlements in the New World.
And as we know well, scientists don't always get it right (need I mention Dr. Foochi?). The interesting thing is when they find artifacts that have no reason to be where they're found.
And as we know well, scientists don't always get it right (need I mention Dr. Foochi?). The interesting thing is when they find artifacts that have no reason to be where they're found.
Posted by: Dana Mathewson at October 23, 2021 09:14 PM (djD2v)
6
Agreed Dana. Often we learn things that surprise us.
But then again every scientist wants to make his mark and a lot of crap science gets peddled. Then you end up with people claiming Jesus was black or Hitler was a Jew or whatnot.
But then again every scientist wants to make his mark and a lot of crap science gets peddled. Then you end up with people claiming Jesus was black or Hitler was a Jew or whatnot.
Posted by: Timothy Birdnow at October 24, 2021 08:10 AM (UKTvW)
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