May 16, 2023
Arguing with Idiots: Russian Collusion Edition
Timothy Birdnow
More arguing with that peabrain who defends the FBI and CIA over the Russian hoax.
Mike Cecic argues:
There is substantial evidence that Russia tried to affect the results of the 2016 and 2020 U.S. presidential elections by conducting cyberattacks, spreading disinformation,
I retort:
No, the only evidence is that Russians were online sowing discord,
something they have always done. There was no major tampering with the
election. THAT is a shibboleth designed by Trump haters.
In point of fact Steele got a good deal of information FROM the Russian intelligence to produce his dossier - which means they were colluding with the Hillary camp! Also, the Ukrainaians were clearly involved with Hillary.
So, isn't it funny these national intellligence types all concentrated on Trump and accused him of treason?
Cecic replies:
It is not correct to say that the only evidence of Russian interference in U.S. elections is that they were online sowing discord. There is substantial evidence that Russia has engaged in various forms of covert electoral interference, such as hacking, leaking, spreading disinformation,
According to a declassified intelligence report released in March 2021, President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia authorized extensive efforts to hurt the candidacy of Joseph R. Biden Jr. during the 2020 election, including by mounting covert operations to influence people close to President Donald J. Trump5. The report did not name those people but seemed to refer to the work of Mr. Trump’s former personal lawyer Rudolph W. Giuliani, who relentlessly pushed accusations of corruption about Mr. Biden and his family involving Ukraine5.
In 2018, a federal grand jury indicted 12 Russian military intelligence officers for their alleged roles in interfering with the 2016 U.S. elections by hacking into the computers of U.S. persons and entities involved in the 2016 U.S. presidential election, stealing documents from those computers, and staging releases of the stolen documents to interfere with the 2016 U.S. presidential election6. The indictment also charged two of these defendants with a separate conspiracy to commit computer crimes, relating to hacking into the computers of U.S. persons and entities responsible for the administration of 2016 U.S. elections6.
However, there is no evidence that Russia or any other country tampered with the actual votes or vote tallies in any U.S. election78. The intelligence community and the Justice and Homeland Security Departments also rejected false accusations promoted by Mr. Trump’s allies that Venezuela or other countries had defrauded the 2020 election5.
Tim replies:
Mike Cacic you seem to not understand that all countries meddle in elections. It is something that has gone on for a long time. We have done our share. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/07/the-us-has-a-long-history-of-election-meddling/565538/ And we even fomented the Orange Revolution when we didn't like the pro-Russian Yaruschenko in Ukraine.
There was nothing unusual in what Russia was doing. I would add the Chinese were also meddling but we heard nothing about that. Why so?
We do know the Steele Dossier was aided by the Russians. I guess you forgot that little fact. But the FBI and CIA and others concentrated solely on Trump and his campaign, of which there was no evidence for collusion. Now why was that?
Hacking, leaking, spreading disinformation? Are you talking about the FBI or the Russians? That sort of thing happens every election cycle.
The Chinese do it too.https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/11/04/china-us-midterm-election-interference-meddling-social-media-cybersecurity-disinformation/
Why wasn't Joe Biden put under the same sort of scrutiny as Trump? On the contrary, the Hunter Biden Laptop issue shows the Biden family in bed with the Chinese. But what did our national security apparatus do? They lied and called it Russian disinformation, even while they had possession of the laptop and knew it's veracity.
The Russians had far more to gain by a Clinton Presidency. I guess you missed it but the Russians were using disinformation to support the Paris Accords and promote "green energy", something Trump was dead set against. Hillary supported those. See https://thehill.com/opinion/energy-environment/596304-investigate-russias-covert-funding-of-us-anti-fossil-fuel-groups/ and https://www.foxnews.com/world/russia-funding-environmental-groups-europe-united-state
The Trump policy was to disengage from foreign wars (which were sapping America's strength and Putin knew it), to rebuild the military, to bring industry back to the U.S., to withdraw from the Iran nuclear deal, and to get Europe to take a more active roll in it's own defense. None of these things benefited Putin or the Russians. Hillary, on the other hand, had already shown herself weak on foreign policy, corruptible, and on board with green energy, with reducing fossil fuels, with fighting multiple wars.
There was no reason why Russia would want Trump over Hillary.
You say intelligence suggested the Russians were trying to influence people close to Trump. ??? How did that hurt Biden? Wouldn't it have been better to influence Biden's people? They may have tried, but in vain. Of course the report didn't name names, because there was no there there.
Did it occur to you that Guilliani actually might have believed the election was stolen, as so many other Americans, myself included, have realized?
"In 2018, a federal grand jury indicted 12 Russian military intelligence officers for their alleged roles in interfering with the 2016 U.S. elections"
Yes, amazing wasn't it! They indicted people who were not in the country hoping they wouldn't show up. Mueller needed something to show for his troubles. You will notice too it was for the DNC hack, which it turns out was probably carried out by employees of the DNC. BTW you can INDICT a ham sandwich. That proves nothing. But even if true, the fact is this is something that is not in the least unusual. YOU seem to want to tie it to Trump and assume indictments mean Trump is GUILTY, GUILTY, GUILTY!
Crowdstrike, which came in to examine the DNC computers (after the DNC denied the FBI access) admitted there was no evidence of Russian hacking. https://www.realclearinvestigations.com/articles/2020/05/13/hidden_over_2_years_dem_cyber-firms_sworn_testimony_it_had_no_proof_of_russian_hack_of_dnc_123596.html
Which puts your entire case to bed. No proof.
Your claim Trump allies blamed Venezuela for election fraud is ridiculous. The claim was that Dominon voting systems were compromised, with a design feature allowing for changing votes n the system. The claim was that was put in place because of a demand by the Venezuelans, who used it to keep the communists in power. Nobody said Venezuela was behind the theft of the 2020 election. That was a straw man argument.
I'm sorry but nothing you say holds any water.
More arguing with that peabrain who defends the FBI and CIA over the Russian hoax.
Mike Cecic argues:
There is substantial evidence that Russia tried to affect the results of the 2016 and 2020 U.S. presidential elections by conducting cyberattacks, spreading disinformation,
I retort:
In point of fact Steele got a good deal of information FROM the Russian intelligence to produce his dossier - which means they were colluding with the Hillary camp! Also, the Ukrainaians were clearly involved with Hillary.
So, isn't it funny these national intellligence types all concentrated on Trump and accused him of treason?
Cecic replies:
It is not correct to say that the only evidence of Russian interference in U.S. elections is that they were online sowing discord. There is substantial evidence that Russia has engaged in various forms of covert electoral interference, such as hacking, leaking, spreading disinformation,
According to a declassified intelligence report released in March 2021, President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia authorized extensive efforts to hurt the candidacy of Joseph R. Biden Jr. during the 2020 election, including by mounting covert operations to influence people close to President Donald J. Trump5. The report did not name those people but seemed to refer to the work of Mr. Trump’s former personal lawyer Rudolph W. Giuliani, who relentlessly pushed accusations of corruption about Mr. Biden and his family involving Ukraine5.
In 2018, a federal grand jury indicted 12 Russian military intelligence officers for their alleged roles in interfering with the 2016 U.S. elections by hacking into the computers of U.S. persons and entities involved in the 2016 U.S. presidential election, stealing documents from those computers, and staging releases of the stolen documents to interfere with the 2016 U.S. presidential election6. The indictment also charged two of these defendants with a separate conspiracy to commit computer crimes, relating to hacking into the computers of U.S. persons and entities responsible for the administration of 2016 U.S. elections6.
However, there is no evidence that Russia or any other country tampered with the actual votes or vote tallies in any U.S. election78. The intelligence community and the Justice and Homeland Security Departments also rejected false accusations promoted by Mr. Trump’s allies that Venezuela or other countries had defrauded the 2020 election5.
Tim replies:
Mike Cacic you seem to not understand that all countries meddle in elections. It is something that has gone on for a long time. We have done our share. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/07/the-us-has-a-long-history-of-election-meddling/565538/ And we even fomented the Orange Revolution when we didn't like the pro-Russian Yaruschenko in Ukraine.
There was nothing unusual in what Russia was doing. I would add the Chinese were also meddling but we heard nothing about that. Why so?
We do know the Steele Dossier was aided by the Russians. I guess you forgot that little fact. But the FBI and CIA and others concentrated solely on Trump and his campaign, of which there was no evidence for collusion. Now why was that?
Hacking, leaking, spreading disinformation? Are you talking about the FBI or the Russians? That sort of thing happens every election cycle.
The Chinese do it too.https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/11/04/china-us-midterm-election-interference-meddling-social-media-cybersecurity-disinformation/
Why wasn't Joe Biden put under the same sort of scrutiny as Trump? On the contrary, the Hunter Biden Laptop issue shows the Biden family in bed with the Chinese. But what did our national security apparatus do? They lied and called it Russian disinformation, even while they had possession of the laptop and knew it's veracity.
The Russians had far more to gain by a Clinton Presidency. I guess you missed it but the Russians were using disinformation to support the Paris Accords and promote "green energy", something Trump was dead set against. Hillary supported those. See https://thehill.com/opinion/energy-environment/596304-investigate-russias-covert-funding-of-us-anti-fossil-fuel-groups/ and https://www.foxnews.com/world/russia-funding-environmental-groups-europe-united-state
The Trump policy was to disengage from foreign wars (which were sapping America's strength and Putin knew it), to rebuild the military, to bring industry back to the U.S., to withdraw from the Iran nuclear deal, and to get Europe to take a more active roll in it's own defense. None of these things benefited Putin or the Russians. Hillary, on the other hand, had already shown herself weak on foreign policy, corruptible, and on board with green energy, with reducing fossil fuels, with fighting multiple wars.
There was no reason why Russia would want Trump over Hillary.
You say intelligence suggested the Russians were trying to influence people close to Trump. ??? How did that hurt Biden? Wouldn't it have been better to influence Biden's people? They may have tried, but in vain. Of course the report didn't name names, because there was no there there.
Did it occur to you that Guilliani actually might have believed the election was stolen, as so many other Americans, myself included, have realized?
"In 2018, a federal grand jury indicted 12 Russian military intelligence officers for their alleged roles in interfering with the 2016 U.S. elections"
Yes, amazing wasn't it! They indicted people who were not in the country hoping they wouldn't show up. Mueller needed something to show for his troubles. You will notice too it was for the DNC hack, which it turns out was probably carried out by employees of the DNC. BTW you can INDICT a ham sandwich. That proves nothing. But even if true, the fact is this is something that is not in the least unusual. YOU seem to want to tie it to Trump and assume indictments mean Trump is GUILTY, GUILTY, GUILTY!
Crowdstrike, which came in to examine the DNC computers (after the DNC denied the FBI access) admitted there was no evidence of Russian hacking. https://www.realclearinvestigations.com/articles/2020/05/13/hidden_over_2_years_dem_cyber-firms_sworn_testimony_it_had_no_proof_of_russian_hack_of_dnc_123596.html
Which puts your entire case to bed. No proof.
Your claim Trump allies blamed Venezuela for election fraud is ridiculous. The claim was that Dominon voting systems were compromised, with a design feature allowing for changing votes n the system. The claim was that was put in place because of a demand by the Venezuelans, who used it to keep the communists in power. Nobody said Venezuela was behind the theft of the 2020 election. That was a straw man argument.
I'm sorry but nothing you say holds any water.
Posted by: Timothy Birdnow at
12:45 PM
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Posted by: Mainter at May 17, 2023 03:58 AM (ZMAT6)
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You clearly have strong opinions on the subject of the time card calculator, but I respectfully disagree. Evidence presented by US intelligence agencies shows that Russia actually tried to interfere in the 2016 and 2020 US presidential elections.
Posted by: TomHiddleston at November 21, 2023 05:00 AM (26gEd)
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