1 I will finally add my tuppence to the discussion. I've held back till now.

Tim, I believe your response might have been different if the original commentor (the woman who expressed the idea of "going out to save a few elephants and kill a few bad guys") had gone about it differently, maybe by saying "and eliminate a few poachers" instead. Or "cut down the number of illegal poachers." As Willis points out, poaching is a large problem, not only of elephants but of other animals in Africa, and India too. And it's not possible to deal with it by finding the poachers and "reasoning" with them, explaining the problem to them and "telling them it's wrong," like the English cops mentioned in a recent article dealing with Muslim raping of Brit women. It doesn't get the idea across. Unfortunately, poachers can get huge amounts of money for a poached elephant tusk or two, and feed their families for a long time on the money.

So is a poacher "a bad guy" for wanting to feed his family? Depends on how you look at it. The problem is, how do you stop him? Because if you don't stop him, you're going to lose a lot of elephants, and Africa, especially in the area where this is being done, hasn't elephants to spare.

There is no right or wrong answer. You can't put the guy to work flipping burgers at Mickey D's. There have been many attempts made to shut the illegal ivory trade down, but it keeps popping up -- it's just like the drug trade. As long as there's a demand. . .

2 Dana, I agree with you and I most certainly don't  have a problem with shooting the poachers if they shoot at the park rangers or whatnot. I'm all for shooting a home invader, or a carjacker, or a shoplifter who attacks security (I WAS security in a grocery store when I was an manager way back when). It was the flippancy of the article - and the glee of the very people who would try to take our rights to self-protection in another context, that got my goat.

I also think the approach of big reservations is wrong; it rarely works very well. What is much better is to incentivize private enterprise to increase the herds. It has been done with a number of other animals. I don't know how well these creatures breed in captivity, but if you can breed them on "free range" farms that would suffice. The American Buffalo is still around because of ranchers, not environmentalists, for instance.

3 Considering that Sub-Saharan Africa is made up of just about the poorest countries in the world, I'm not quite sure how private enterprise is going to fill the bill here, Tim; that plus the fact that it simply isn't part of Africans' DNA. Those countries are virtually all kleptocracies, which is why people like Robert Mugabe and Idi Amin flourished. Even South Africa, which was doing well under white rule for years, is going downhill fast now, with whites facing being forced to give all their farms over to black ownership and pretty much flee the country. And there go the free range farms.

4 Well, Dana, you have to bring outsiders in to buy up property. It's actually been done with outstanding results in other places. I realize it's difficult to do in Africa.

But is the current effort to save elephants working?  Dana, I just watched Dual Survival last night and they were faced with elephant and rino poachers. They said it's a mandatory twenty year sentence for poaching, but it appears poachers were all over the place. Obviously the effort is wrong-headed. People as poor as these cannot pass up a chance to make that kind of cash.

I would point out that Asian elephants are doing much better, largely because they domesticated the Asian elephant a long time ago and so the animals have economic value alive.

I would also point out that the America Buffalo was nearly extinct and it wasn't U.N. programs and government reserves that brought them back - it was the establishment of a slaughter market.

There has to be a way to make these creatures worth more alive  than dead, at least in the wild.

5

 

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