May 28, 2022
Part II of my argument with the man who thinks Trump is the Antichrist.
Read part I here.
Jonathan Dane says:
Just a short addendum if I may. Daniel 7:25 does not say that the AC will change the "calendar." It says he will try to change the appointed time (×–Ö°×žÖ¸×Ÿ - zeman, appointed period). Contextually, seeing that the same verse gives his length of rule, the AC will likely seek to have that extended.
I want to say, right out of the gate, what a blessing it is for you even to engage this issue. I crave this because iron sharpens iron. Also, my claim and especially my book would be a very grievous sin if it were shown to be false. That said, I really appreciate you pushing back on it. I MEAN THAT. By God's grace, I am so confident in answers to your objections that I promise to post my response to both my personal as well as my book's Facebook page.
The following needs to be understood right up front: We are not yet in the 7-year Tribulation. It is during such time period that we read of many particular things that the Antichrist will do. This MUST be understood heading into this conversation. Was Hitler "Hitler" in 1933 or in 1938? If by Hitler, you mean the man who slaughtered millions of Jews in concentration camps, the answer is: NO. But did Hitler show signs in his person, words, and actions that might have led one to understand that he certainly had the potential to become such a man? Absolutely.
Even so, there is a difference between Hitler, a type of antichrist (small "a"), and THE end-time Antichrist (capital "A" ): To the former, we have little explicitly said about his person, words, or actions in Scripture. To the latter, we have plenty! Just because Trump has not yet entered into his role as the ultimate wicked man he is to become during the Tribulation, does not mean a man of insight, wisdom, and biblical understanding cannot see the potential of these things in him. Scripture never says we cannot know a man's heart. It only says we cannot know it as God does. Furthermore, there ARE things in Scripture that give us clues to the Antichrist's identity, things not limited to a latter tribulational fulfillment.
///Your quote: "Well Jonathan Dane we can look at scripture and see these points which do not jibe with Trump as Anti-Christ. 1. Daniel 7:25; 11:36; Rev 13:5 say he will blaspheme God and slander His name. Donald Trump has yet to do such a thing. But plenty of his opponents do. 2. Daniel 7:25; Rev 13:7 He will oppress the Saints and Church. Interestingly enough, it was Trump who argued against the closure of churches during the pandemic." ///
This, like what I would assume others in your reply, applies to what I said above. All these passages above apply to the tribulation proper and simply have not come into their complete fulfillment. That said, I would suggest that any man who goes from place to place, holding up grandma's Bible (even as he cleared out LaFeyette Square for a photo op in front of a church), and yet when pressed, confessed that he "does not need to ask God for forgiveness" IS - A - BLASPHEMER. This is a man who retweeted something referring to himself as "the 2nd coming of God," the SAME DAY he looked up into the heavens and said with a straight face, "I AM THE CHOSEN ONE." (Did you happen to notice the words I AM and CHOSEN ONE in that sentence?) Trump regularly basks in the glow of his hardcore followers, many of whom hold Trump up to the level of a messiah. The list of examples is endless. As far as Trump arguing against the closure of churches, I only note that it was under his watch that the churches closed.
///Your quote: "In fact, the churches are one of Trumps power bases." ///
I would go one step farther and say that the churches ARE his power base, which is one of the greatest pieces of evidence that he *is* the Antichrist. Notice the word "power" in your quote. Rev. 17 and elsewhere depict the Antichrist as a "beast whose rider is a Whore." The longest quote in my book is of Trump in 2016 before a group of faith leaders and followers where he flat-out ADMITS the reason as to WHY he is supporting the faith community. It is for POWER. I have him in his own words, in context. The language is clear. The Whore in Rev. 17 is the False Church who will be in bed with the Antichrist during the trib. I am not suggesting that anyone who supports Trump is part of this, for I believe many will turn on him before the Rapture of the Church. But many WILL NOT.
//Your quote: "Daniel 7:25 The AntiChrist will try to change the calender. Trump has never advocated such a thing. 4. Dan 7:25 "he thinks to change times and laws"//
My opener addresses this. Thus far, he certainly has sought to change the calendar of his time in office.
//Your quote: "But Mr. Trump has sought to RESTORE the laws of the U.S."//
Does that include our laws of a free and fair election? Look, either you see Trump as a career law-breaker, or you don't. If you desire a few more of his offenses, a recent post on my page lists them. My book includes countless offenses up to 2017, not to mention the numerous other books, documentaries, and articles that enumerate his unlawful behavior. It's endless. He is truly the LAWLESS ONE.
/// Your quote: "In Great Again Donald Trump writes "I think people are shocked when they find out that I am Christian, that I am a religious person," That is at odds with the Anti-Christ, who is described as glorifying himself above all and rejecting the God of his fathers." ///
I'm sorry. Can I just take a moment to laugh to myself until I regain my senses? And you believe him becausssss.....
///Your quote: "Here is a biggie; Dan 11:37 says he will have "no regard for the desire of women" meaning he will be homosexual or completely asexual. Donald Trump may be a carnal man, but clearly has a regard for the desire of women." ///
Carnal man, huh. For a second there, I thought you said he was a Christian.
Anyway...You are simply misreading that text. It does not say that "he does not desire women." It says that he has no regard for the desire OF women. The word "OF" is key. It speaks of a possession of love. But it begs the question. Of whose? That of the Antichrist or of women? Clearly, it is regarding what WOMEN love, not what the Antichrist loves. It says when it comes to the things that women love, the things that they cherish, the Antichrist will have no regard. That's because he's a sociopath. I write about this in my book as follows:
"The Antichrist will not concern himself with women's concerns. He is a sociopathic person of power whose regard for women will be self-centered, limited to any advantage or pleasure acquired, i.e., sexual gratification. From the perspective of a sociopath, women are mere objects with no right to regard anything; women are dehumanizedâ€”mer
What do women cherish the most? Their children? The rights over their bodies? Whether or not you agree with the policies, both have been stripped away under Trump's watch. In the former, they were put in cages.
/// Your quote: "In 2 Thessalonians 2:4 we learn Anti-Christ claims to be God. As far as I'm aware Trump never made that claim." ///
I have already addressed this. He has already come darn close. This will happen more directly during the trib.
/// Your quote: "In Daniel 11:39-44 the Anti-Christ is described as honoring a "god of forces" i.e. the military." ///
This is another statement difficult to address only because it is so glaringly false that I have to assume you are simply blinded from seeing it. WE could start here: https://
Trump's over-the-top statements concerning nuclear weapons, war, dictators, and the like are so numerous that I doubt a 500-page book could contain them. The info is widely available on a planet called Earth. Visit there sometime.
/// Your quote: "Atni-Christ will deny Jesus came in the flesh, or was the embodiment of God. 2 John 7 Mr. Trump has never done that." ///
Has Trump ever been outright asked? Oh, I heard him keep the tradition of the president's role at Easter and Christmas of telling folks what Christianity is (to which, even that he butchered), but I have never heard a personal testimony of his beyond, "Oh, I'm religious, I mean, I won the evangelicals." (Yeah, that's darn near an actual quote of his.)
/// Your quote: "Rev 17:16-18 says AntiChrist will hate his initial overlords. America IS the overlord, not the other way around." ///
That passage speaks to when the Antichrist will no longer have need for the Whore (the false church). When he's done with her, he'll burn her with fire. It's that simple. And such will happen to every professed "Christian" who follows Trump into the Trib.
/// Your quote: "He has not suffered a fatal head injury. Granted, that may be symbolic; it could mean a fatal POLITICAL wound, but that is not what the Biblical text says." ///
I believe it is both symbolic and literal. The symbolic has already occurred. The literal will follow.
/// Your quote: "There is no connection between 666 and Donald J. Trump." ///
Actually, there is. Don Drumpf comes out to 666 in English Gematria. (Drumpf is his original family name.) That said, gematria is nowhere condoned in Scripture. It comes from both Babylonian and Kabbalistic occultism. I deal with 666 extensively in my book in my exposition of Revelation 13. I'll leave it there.
/// Your quote: "The Anti-Christ will almost certainly be an educated, erudite individual, probably homosexual, who loves playing general and probably holds Progressive views." ///
I will donate $1000 to the charity of your choice if you can find one verse in the bible that suggests those things (minus the "loves playing general" part, which is true of the Antichrist and is also true of Trump, who claimed he knew *more* than the generals). And I will even add to that the false notion that the Antichrist will be young, handsome, charismatic, a great orator, and loved by everyone, concepts nowhere to be found in the Bible, only in the movies and from false teachers who use them as the source material for their false teachings.
Your quote: /// "He will probably come from the old Roman Empire (meaning Europe.)" ///
The Bible nowhere says that the Antichrist will "come from" Europe. It says that he will eventually head up an Empire built on her ashes. (America is a Young Lion of her Mother England.) I have a whole chapter dealing with this in my book.
/// Your quote: "While that may be true, it is also true that many within the False Church of the end days will die on Antichrist's hill" And exactly WHO is this false Church Jonathan Dane? How do you know YOU aren't following it? I really am curious, not being argumentative. I would like to know who this false Church is. ." ///
The False Church is the Whore of Babylon. She is part and parcel to the apostasy of 2 Thess 2, which centers in an outright revolt and rejection of a love of the truth (alethia in the Greek, i.e., "seen reality.") Again, I have an entire chapter dealing with this issue in my book. The apostle Paul is very clear that TWO THINGS must happen BEFORE the Day of the Lord takes place, which starts with the Tribulation). 1.) the apostasy 2.) the rise of the Antichrist. (And in case you are wondering. I am a solidly pre-trib believer.)
As with every objection you have brought up and every objection communicated to me since I wrote the book over six years ago, my book preempted EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM WITHOUT EXCEPTION and dealt with it exhaustively. How is that even possible if not by the assistance of the Holy Spirit?
In closing, I want to thank you for your tone (better than mine as I included a couple of sarcasms.) I really appreciate this opportunity to address your questions. You may not be satisfied with my answers, but at least I answered. I think the book's strength (and truth) is revealed in moments like this. At least I have shown that I have done some homework and that this book is different from the other goofy political smears that have preceded it.
God bless you, dear saint.
Thank you for a courteous response. I do disagree with most of your points though.
First, you say we are not in the 7 year Tribulation. How do you know? The Bible makes it fairly clear we wouldn't know it. The only sure way to tell we are in the Tribulation is the Abomination of Desolation, which has yet to happen. We may be in the early part of it. Certainly the times are right by the guidelines given us by Jesus.
Your Hitler analogy is poor. Hitler gave the world his program in Mein Kampf. He made no bones about his plans. Donald Trump has never done anything remotely like that. We are not to pre-judge people. Jesus commanded us "judge not lest ye be judged". We are also not supposed to waste time with speculations - something we are BOTH violating here!
You are making assumptions you cannot make I think, Jonathan.
Your mention of Trump clearing the Mall so he could go to church is not really a supportable one. Trump was going to church, where he is a parishioner. He is the President. Secret Service was not going to allow people who had been rioting to surround him. It's what they would have done with any President. I would add Mr. Trump could have ordered the Mall cleared completely. He did not do so. THAT is what the Antichrist would do. Nobody was seriously injured.
It's odd you use that as an argument against him. But then you are taking your information from a mainstream media that dedicated itself to his destruction early on. This is the same media that promotes every sort of foul and anti-christian position. That alone should give us pause. I would argue the media is the dragon of revelation who opens its mouth and pours the floodwaters to drown the mother and child. This dragon HATES Donald Trump, which suggests Trump is not the evil one here but rather a skapegoat.
The "not ask God for forgiveness" comment was probably taken well out of context. I don't know for certain, but I will say this; he doesn't deny God or Christ here. A house divided cannot stand. And certainly in our modern era atheism is no longer a disqualifier for public office.
That "second coming" comment was reported entirely dishonestly. Trump was saying what he was told by an Israeli friend who told him that in Israel many of the Jews look on him as "the second coming" (a Christian term, not a Jewish I might add) because of his support of Israel. Trump did not say that of himself.
Furthermore,t he "Chosen One" statement was when he was talking about trade relations with China and how every President talked about reform but never acted. Trump said that history had chosen him i.e. the chosen one. You may remember Barack Hussein Obama said something very similar when President. (Obama bears a far greater resemblence to the Antichrist, I might add, and it was Obama who sabotaged Trump from the beginning, with the fake Russian collusion story written by the Clinton campaign being treated seriously by the people Obama put in power.)
When you have a man who is President and every word is recorded it is easy to cut and snip, pick and choose key phrases to put him in a bad light. The media did that repeatedly with Trump.
I did not support Trump when he was first running and I still think hima jackass in many ways, but he seems to be growing both as a person and a politician and I didn't hire him to be my pastor but the head of the executive branch of government. He did what he said he wouuld do, somehting we have not seen for decades from any politician. THAT is why so many conservatives love him. It is not worship (granted, some may worship him) but merely the love of people who have been endlessly abused by their government, by their media, by the ruling class who finally found a champion, someone who would stand up for them.
Again, which church is it that is the kingdom of the Antichrist? Calvinists? Catholics? In point of fact none of the churches swing that kind of lumber anymore. If you seek power in the modern world you don't go at it through the Christian churches. They no longer hold that much sway with people. You would adopt neo-paganism, as did Hitler, or atheism as did the Bolsheviks.
No, Trump did not "try to change the calender" as you claim. He tried to fulfill the law. There were rules changed, often illegally, by governors and judges, and there was a lot of cheating at critical precincts in battleground states in that last election. Trump wanted to make every vote count, not just the votes of those who stuffed the ballot box.
The forensic audit in Arizona showed evidence of massive abuse of the system. So did audits in Pennsylvania and Wisconsin and even Michigan. The Carter Baker Commission recommended strongly against mail-in voting after the 2000 election and the Democrats used it as a blueprint to steal this last election.
All Trump did was try to give America a fair count.
I could cite reams of data showing how this election could not have happened the way it did. William Briggs, statistician, did extensive work showing this couldn't have gone this way. For one thing there were NO coattails.
But I digress.
Even if your point is valid he did not change the CALENDER.
Yes, Mr. Trump tried to restore the laws of a free and fair election. It was his opponents who sought to change times and laws.
And what of other laws? Immigraiton laws? Mr. Biden is breaking the law daily with his open border policy. Trump followed the letter of those laws.
Why didn't he send in trooops to Portland during the BLM riots? Federalism forbade him doing so.
Why didn't he order Blue States to reopen? Federalism forbade him.
I could go on.
The LAWLES ONE? I think not. It is his opponents who have behaved lawlessly. I suspect I could knock down every claim made about his supposed "lawlessness".
I can prove it, too. Trump was impeached twice and not convicted. Why not? Because in the end there was no evidence to convict him. He had done nothing wrong. The Democrats impeached him solely as a political move. They seek even now to convict him of a crime so he can't run again. But they have failed at every turn and this while having a reasonably sympathetic Republican party (who never supported Trump as he was an outsider). IF what you say is true then Trump would have fallen at the first impeachment.
Nobody could stand up to the kind of scrutiny he underwent. The media was digging like crazy, and he had Robert Mueller and others breathng down his neck. But nobody found a smoking gun to hang him. Why not?
Trump did not have his own people anywhere but at the top, and many of those were GOP insiders who didn't support him. Trump did not remake the bureaucracy as did Obama; he didn't have enough time and had little support.
And anybody who was effective and worked for Trump was beaten to abloody pulp by the media.
I would add Mr. Trump appointed several pro-life SCOTUS Justices, triggering exploding heads across the country. Now, do you think the Antichrist would do such a thing? Why would he care about the unborn?
No. The Antichrist would be the first guy to kill babies in the womb. And a house divided cannot stand; he wouldn't do it on general principle.
He WOULD support sexual deviancy wherever he could. But Trump cooled the zeal for transgenderism, for instance, in the military where he had the authority to do so.
That is most uncharacteristic for the Beast.
Why do I believe when Trump calls himself a Christian? Because JESUS SAID TO. You can snigger to yourself all you like, but Trump said he is Christian and as a result I am compelled to believe him until given solid proof to the contrary.
You are judging without proper information.
Is Trump a sinner? You bet. So are we all. Trump is particularly interested in women, a faililng of many powerful men (Bill Clinton comes to mind). Again, that is evidence he is NOT the Antichrist as the Antichrist will have no "regard for the desire of women".
I would add King David was a carnal man, but the Bible calls him the "apple of God's eye". You claim Trump's carnality is proof he isn't a Christian. I guess David wasn't a Jew?
I am using the orthodox interpretation of that passage from Daniel 11:37. You are using a rather novel interpretation, to put it mildly.
I would point out Mr. Trump has many close female associates who he holds in high regard, thus destroying the interpretation you are holding here. So either way this passage is quite damaging to your assertions about Trump.
The Bible does not say the Antichrist is purely sociopathic. THAT is reading into the text.
What do women cherish the most, you ask; children? Who defended children in the womb? Their power over their own bodies? Where did Trump take any such power away, except to resist easy, unfettered abortion which murders those children. Abortion has always been considered a moral evil by Christianity. It goes back to the early Church. That you suggest Trump is evil for opposing abortion speaks volumes.
And don't start that b.s. about children in cages. Most of the photos taken at the border were from the OBAMA era. https://www.westernjournal.com/viral-photo-of-caged-children-actually-from-obama-era-nothing-to-do-with-trump/
And in fact they weren't cages but fences. Also, I would add those children were being brougth here illegally. When laws are broken people get put in cages, in case you missed that.
So, my claim Trump was not a lover of the military is somehow wrong? And that is not what the Bible says?
Sorry, but you are wrong.
Who wound down wars around the globe? Why do you think so many generals hated Trump?
Trump was the first President in at least half a century to not start a foreign war. Some military tyrant.
I would add that Mr. Trump, like many former Presidents, believes in peace through strength. Yes, he talks tough. and yes he acts when he must. But when has he been the aggressor? I would add much of what he had to do was fight wars inhereted from previous Presidents. I think you know that - or you should. Claims to the contrary are frankly dishonest.
Or do you think he should have surrendered to ISIS?
I've already given you a Trump quote. If you choose to not believe it that's fine, but it hardly strengthens your position. No doubt I could find others if I had time to look.
Again, you fail to identify the church in question. Is it the Mormons? The Episcopalians? The Catholics? The Catholic Church has believed that a Pope would be the False Prophet, and he may yet be (certainly Pope Francis is a contender) but again we have no identification of who or what the church in question is. And how will they be of service to him? In the West Christianity has largely lost it's power. But neo-paganism and atheism are ascendant. Hitler paid some lip-service to Christianity when he was rising but then gave it up after; he was clearly an atheist. And most of the Nazis were neopagans - theosophists in the Thule Society. But that was at a time when most people in the West WERE Christian. I rather doubt that would be necessary now.
You ASSUME it is Christian churches that will be on the side of the Antichrist. That is not entirely clear in Scripture.
Mystery Babylon suggests a neopaganism.
Your interpretation of a symbolic head wound could just as easily apply to Barack Obama, who has quietly been directing the war against Trump from Washington. It's easy to play that game.
Trump's middle name is John. It is not a six letter word, so it fails your 666 test. Also, none of Trump's names correspond to the numerical letters that Hebrew coresponds to. (Neron Kaiser is the nearest approximation). This is not even remotely close. If you want to use the number of letters and Trump's old name it still comes to 646.
I know nothing about English Germatria, but rather doubt it has any bearing on the Book of Revelations. I will give you an A for creativity with that one.
That the Antichrist is not described in the Bible as educated and erudite is of no importance. We know what he will be because he will be the antithesis of Jesus.
Jesus was working class and went to the working class. This suggests the antichrist will be rich and go to the rich. While Trump is rich and was so born, his real outreach is to the working class (much like Jesus.) He is supported by the working class. The wealthy supported Hillary and Biden. That is what one would expect of the supporters of the Antichrist.
Jesus was plain spoken and direct. So is Donald Trump. One would expect the Antichrist to be eloquent and silver-tongued.
Jesus had a healthy skepticism of the ruling class in his country and so does Donald Trump.
No doubt there are more examples. Trump is NOT like Jesus in a great many ways, but in these key issues he is. And we must assume the Antichrist is unlike Jesus in almost every way - he's anti Christ.
That business about the Antichrist coming from America is speculation. There is every reason to believe he will come from Europe.
Yes, it is possible that the U.S. is included in the restored Roman Empire, but that is an assumption that cannot necessarily be made. What we know is the Antichrist will come to a restored Roman Empire. By a literal metric that must be Europe, North Africa, or the Middle East. If we take a literal approach to it.
Again, it is based on assumptions - both my argument and yours.
BTW I am post-trib. I do not believe God will suspend the laws of physics until the Second Coming. Who wouldn't repent if all these people started disappearing? And who is going to be left then to be persecuted?
I have not read your book (and won't as I have too much trouble seeing these days, alas.) Forgive me for doubting your claims of Divine guidance on it. Forgive me but I take such claims with a grain of salt in honor of Matthew 7:15 and other scripture.
I most especially take it where claims of wisdom over the end times are concerned as countless predictions by scholars have proven wrong over the centuries and Jesus said only the Father Himself knows the dates and times.
Thanks for a polite response. I apologize for some sarcasm in my own reply. This is a heated subject and you are entirely entitled to your opinion on the subject. I do not feel I am deceived, but nobody who is deceived feels they are deceived (lest they wouldn't be deceived.) You may be right! I hope not for a variety of reasons (and no small part is I don't want to experience the Tribulation.)
Do take care brother, and God bless you!
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