Arguing with idiots: Ukraine War Edition

Timothy Birdnow

On Facebook a discussion broke out worth repeating.

Steven Chase said:

LIKE IT OR NOT...
The U.S. has been fighting proxy wars for the past 40 years - a strategy designed by our CIA. What is happening in Ukraine is NO different. Over the past 16 years, the army the US/NATO built in Ukraine, has swelled to become the largest and best-armed land force in Europe. By almost every metric, it is more potent than the combined armies of Germany, France, and Italy.

War is when the government tells you who the bad guy is. Revolution is when you decide for yourself. - B. Franklin
Clayton Goldstein replies:

I see all you say, about the last 30+ years, the last 30+ weeks, a friend of ours has echoed these thoughts. Then Russia lethally crossed the Ukrainian border, and continues their bombing.

Whoever draws first blood loses the war for my heart and mind.

I disagree with everything our current administration has done, is doing in this theatre and on every other topic under their umbrella. They never fail to make a wrong decision or do something correct, the wrong way. It’s actually somewhat fascinating if one can clinically remove themselves.

But not keeping this a "minor incursion” and stopping, in Biden’s words loses Russia for me. They are responsible for their part. Their part increased considerably when their tanks rolled.

As far as Trump, I agree 100% with your analysis of his foreign policy. It was clear, simple, respectful, prosperous, peaceful, protective of our country and the world - in that order - and it worked. What more is there to foreign policy?

I reply:

Clayton Goldstein you say " Whoever draws first blood loses the war for my heart and mind."

You must utterly loathe America then. We have invaded so many countries over the years; Mexico, Germany, Korea,Vietnam, Grenada, Iraq (twice), Afghanistan, Syria, Panama, etc. and have had multiple military actions short of invasion such as in Iran, in Libya, etc.

Not trying to accuse you of anything, nor be argumentative, but I am making the point that invasion should not be the primary determinant on who is right and who is wrong.

I would argue every invasion we indulged in was warranted (well, most of them) and done for our national security. If we apply your standard then any pre-emptive attack is inexcusable. I disagree.

Don't get me wrong; I largely blame Putin for this. But I'm making the point that this argument is lacking. I would add Ukraine was shelling the Russians in Crimea on a regular basis - an act of war. They also dammed the Dneiper and cut off the water. They kept poking the bear. Bears don't like to be poked.

Was Austria in the wrong for invading Serbia when the Serbs murdered their Archduke? It was a mistake, but Serbia was knowingly protecting the assassin. Was it wrong for the U.S. to get into WWI? (I actually think it was.) We were never attacked. Was it wrong for Israel to invade Syria, or Lebanon, after being shelled from there? I don't think so.

There are times when one must take military action pre-emptively.

John Roberts replies:

Are you saying its our fault Russia invaded Ukraine.

Steven responds:

The war in Ukraine is the culmination of a 30-year project of the American neoconservative

I reply:

Several points to ponder:

1.The country that NATO was established to contain ceased to exist in 1991. Russia is not the Soviet Union. Nor is the Warsaw Pact in existence anymore. There was no reason to maintain NATO after the fall of the Soviet Union.

2. There was no good reason to expand NATO into Russia's backyard. That was a pure provocation.

3. We treated Russia like a vassal state. We dictated terms of most treaties rather than negotiated fairly. We sent in corporations to loot Russia after the end of the Cold War.

4. It was the CIA who engineered the Orange Revolution when a pro-Russian President was elected in Ukraine. We didn't like the election results so we just made our own - and created a new government there. It is no coincidence that Ukraine was the piggybank of the Democrats. It was and remains a vassal state of the U.S.

5. The labs put in place to destroy the old Soviet biological weapons are still in Ukraine and still running. Why, after 30 years? Given the "gain of function" research funded by the U.S. in Wuhan it seems likely these are biological weapons labs - right next door to Russia. Would we tolerate that if it were, say in Cuba?

We almost fought a nuclear war over Soviet nukes in Cuba.

6. We have been funneling weapons into Ukraaine for some time.

7. The U.S. tried to build a pipeline that would bring oil and gas directly from central Asia, skirting both Russia and Iran, and the Ukrainians were to play a major role in that. Now that is fair competition, but it also is guaranteed to piss the Russkies off.

8. The Charlie Foxtrot in Afghanistan showed America was feckless and craven and Putin figured "why not?" Biden's weakness encouraged this action by the Russians in no small measure. Oh, and his approval of the Nordstream II pipeline while killing our own pipelines in the U.S. showed Biden could be bullied. Putin understand energy is power and he knew Europe needed his power. Biden gave it to him in ways both great and small. He drove prices up through the roof thus enriching Russia and the plutocrats and funding this war.

I could go on but yes, in many ways, this is our fault. This war ws entirely avoidable through diplomacy and sound policy. Yes, Biden had to work with what he had - decades of mistakes in our policies - but he doubled down on all of them. I believe he wanted this war to act as a distraction and an excuse for high oil prices.

I agree this invasion was immoral, but from the Russian perspective it was warranted. Ukraine had been poking the Russians for years now. A CIA-imposed government in Ukreaine, I should add.

BTW it was Bill Clinton who pushed the Ukrainians to give up their share of the old Soviet nuclear arsenal with the promise of American protection. They did it, but Russia never gave up her nukes. On the contrary, Clinton funded the destruction of the Soviet arsenal in Russia and Putin took the money and used it to build a new, far better arsenal, one better than our own, and larger. If we got into a nuclear exchange with Russia we would probably lose at this point.

At the end of the Cold War the Ukraine did not need a lot of protection; Russia was no threat at that time. But we've built them into one, alas. Decades of bad policy drove the Russians into rearming and seeking a return to their old status.

Pragmatic ADJECTIVE pragmatic (adjective) 1. dealing with things sensibly and realistically in a way that is based on practical rather than theoretical considerations:

Posted by: Timothy Birdnow at 10:17 AM | Comments (7) | Add Comment
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