November 23, 2021
Arguing with Idiots: Covidiocy Edition
Timothy Birdnow
Another fight on Facebook, this time with a Vax-troll who is probably being paid by the government.
First the Lion's Roar posted:
Michael Carl said:
This original post is such childish fear mongering. We have freedom in America, but that doesn’t mean it’s a free-for-all where people can always do whatever they want. You’re still living in a society where the common good actually means something. These jagoffs watching Tucker Carlson and then acting like they’re the second coming of Sam Adams because they’re preserving freedom by refusing a vaccine should be ridiculed at every turn. SMH.
There are a number of back and forths where Michael Carl insults commenters.
I reply:
Michael Carl has to call people names and ridicule because he can't defend his position in the end. He's a typical modern liberal, incapable of actually making a logical argument.
OF COURSE large gatherings were going to see infection rates spike. But so what? What you fail to mention is the death rates. Covid is essentially a lethal cold, and even colds often come up as covid on the antibody tests. You should know that.
Mr. Carl snorts:
Timothy Birdnow Did I offend your delicate sensibilities? I’m sorry. Trust me, I’ve been called far worse than "jagoff†by angry folks on the right. And if you don’t understand my argument, which focuses on the common good being a priority in any/every society, then I’m not sure what to tell you. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make them drink. But I’m sure you’re the center of the universe too.
I retort:
"If this isn’t purely a public health measure, then please explain what it is they’re trying to "control.â€' Well, it forces you to OBEY a ridiculous or unwarranted rule that was not put in place by legal means. There was no act of Congress for example Michael Carl. I guess you don't realize that tyrannical governments always take actions "for the public interest". How do you think the Nazis gained total control of Germany? The Nazis had a series of health initiatives. https://perspectives.ushmm.org/collection/public-health-under-the-third-reich Every tyrant in history has acted ostensibly for "the public good". It's always "reasonable" measures designed to protect the public when in fact it compels obedience, trains the public like dogs. And the fact is most of these mandates are illegal. They have not been debated by our representatives, but rather have been imposed by a cadre of overreaching autocrats (like that Governor of Wisconsin or Mr. Biden himself). They are running roughshod over the Rule of Law because they were able to declare a state of emergency and impose imperial powers. But it doesn't make it valid. Perhaps you missed it,, but the Constitution guarantees us to be secure in our persons. (That means bodily integrity. You need to learn some history; health measures are and always have been a tool to backdoor despotism. Oh, and if doctors can lose their licenses for not sticking to the party line, how can that be a good thing? The government is the one telling them what they have to say. That isn't following Science but rather obeying orders. At Nuremberg we set the legal rule that following orders isn't a defense against war crimes charges. Well, International Law says you cannot force experimental drugs on people, which is what the Biden Administration is trying to do with the vaccine (which has not met the government's own standards and the government granted waivers from legal jeapordy). Oh, and there is a bit of research that suggests this vaccine may wind up doing a great deal of harm. Google Antibody Dependent Enhancement and Dr. Robert Malone (the guy who pioneered the mRNA vaccine and now thinks the Covid jab is a terrible idea.) .
Nick Bill Kepler adds:
Michael Carl you really do believe all the bs they shove down your throat. Just keep getting all of your information from CNN and MSNBC and continue your life of blissful ignorance. Those of us that don't just blindly follow because they say do will continue to standup for this country against the socialism they so desperately want to force on this country. Think for yourself for 5 min, that'll be plenty of time to what they are doing to this country.
Then back to me:
Michael Carl you say "And if you don’t understand my argument, which focuses on the common good being a priority in any/every society" I understand your argument full well. I don't think you understand it though. At what point does "the public good" terminate and our civil rights begin? Where do we end this collectivist fantasy of yours? The reality is this pandemic was no worse than the pandemic of '57 once you adjust for population growth. We did not impose such draconian policies then, largely because we had just finished fighting a war against fascism and didn't want to impose it on our own society. You and the other collectivist types are hell bent on making America fascist.
Back to Carl:
Here is the error in your logic, and I’ll try to make this brief: You say that tyrannical governments take action for the public interest. But here’s the thing—so do LITERALLY ALL GOVERNMENTS. Just because a government decides to mandate some public health policies during a pandemic does not mean it’s a slippery slope to a Holocaust! Since every country in the world has imposed public health measures to combat this virus, are we to assume now that every government is tyrannical? That’s what your logic brings us to. And to label Biden (And Wisconsin Governor Evers?) as autocrats less than a year after Trump supported an insurrection so that he himself could become an autocratic leader is truly breathtaking. Those are some serious mental gymnastics you’re putting yourself through. Biden has done nothing but champion democracy at home and abroad. If you’re angry about executive orders, I kind of understand, but all presidents, including Trump, use those, especially in an era when Congress is less able to legislate due to partisan bickering. Mandatory vaccines for school attendance and military service never used to be considered "tyranny,†so why now?
As for Malone, he’s one opinion that contradicts a much larger chorus of consensus and data. Attached is a more nuanced take that I’d encourage you to read to the end. This is exactly like climate deniers propping up the opinion of physicist Ivar Giaever. There will always always always be a contrarian opinion. Does not mean it’s the correct one just because you want it to be. That’s called confirmation bias and it’s been well documented in recent years on a variety of topics.
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/08/robert-malone-vaccine-inventor-vaccine-skeptic/619734/
Nick Bill Kappler Can you admit that it’s possible—just possible—that it’s actually you who is the one who has been brainwashed through false fears of socialism? For example, can you name me a single Democrat elected to national office right now who has expressed a desire to move all the means of production in our country out of the hands of private industry and into the government’s? I’m not trying to be a dick here.
I debunk him:
Michael Carl here is the error in YOUR logic. Just because all governments pass laws in the public interest in no way invalidates the possibility of laws being passed in haste during an emergency being used to establish dictatorial powers. Oliver Wendell Holmes famously stated "hard cases make bad law". And pandemics make very bad law. But it would be one thing if we were actually making LAW. We are not; we are instead passing edicts and order that are extra-legal. Or do you think that is how America is supposed to work? We have seen a massive power-grab by those in charge (primarily Democrats, but the Republicans are going along with it.) Most mask mandates and lockdowns had no legal justification - just orders given by governors or mayors or star-chamber-li
Michael Carl you say "Nick Bill KapplerCan you admit that it’s possible—just possible—that it’s actually you who is the one who has been brainwashed through false fears of socialism?' How so? Who controls the media? The media is on board with this lock-stock-and barrell. Facebook censors information that it deems false about this issue. The government promotes information and funds the CDC and others to promote this. The power to influence opinion is all on YOUR side. But facts are stubborn things, which is why the debate still rages despite the threats and intimidation of the governments.
Nick Bill Kapler adds:
Michael Carl there is more than once self proclaimed socialist elected to our government. You can have the easy ones, Berney Sanders and the squad. It doesn't have to meet every single criteria to still be socialist. If it makes Democrats feel better I'll call it Democratic Socialism like Berney does. They just keep expanding the federal government .which is supposed to be limited only to the power granted to it by the constitution, but they want it in everything. They want a day in everything you do and say. They are constantly trying to chip away at the second amendment, they are trying to censor what we can say, and what they can't get away with doing themselves they are using corporations to do it for them. Understanding the constitution and the freedom it gives us is not being brainwashed, making excuses to give them more power and chip away at our freedoms is. Why do you think they want to drastically expand the welfare state, because it's free and they care so much about us or to get as many people on it as possible? If they can do that it will allow them to expand the government and bureaucracy more and more. If you really don't think it ends with socialism then you're probably not paying attention to what they are trying to do.
Will Jackson responds:
First they said, it’s deadly. Then when nobody anyone knew was dying , they said, it’s about saving the NHS. Since then as we all know, some staggeringly insane figure has been put into enforcing all of the various restrictions and implementations
Personally I would Much rather have caught it and gone to hospital any time last year, and have tax money spent on saving me that way.
The real problem as I see it, is that I’m not enforcing this view on anyone and never have. Meanwhile people are encouraged to guilt trip one another into the vaccination plan, spouting off meaningless and flawed circular logic. I.e. you must be vaxxed so that I dont die because I don’t have faith in my own vax to save me.
Michael Carl here we go, ready?
1. I did not say that the protocols did nothing. I did say they cannot be proven to have accomplished anything. You apparently don't understand the difference.
I don't care overmuch about taking popularity polls. What you fail to do is provide any concrete proof that any of this has done a damned thing. I pointed out that the states and countries with the highest infection rates have often been the strictest. I guess it was just bad luck New York suffered such terrible infection rates?
2. Sweden. Sweden has been in the middle of the pack in Europe all along (which is why you alarmists have had to dishonestly compare it to the rest of Scandinavia, of which Sweden is both far larger in terms of population and very open to travel and immigration. Sweden got it's primary wave of infections from tourism from Italy, I would add.)
And I guess you missed this little gem:
"Unlike most other countries, Sweden uses "date of incidence" figures for its official death toll, so these "date of reporting" figures will not match official data for the most recent days. Correction: Between August 11 and September 15 2021 new cases and new deaths data for Sweden was displayed incorrectly due to a programming error. This was corrected on September 16, 2021."
https://ig.ft.com/coronavirus-chart/
Sweden has done fairly well throughout this, better than much of the stricter parts of Europe.
How can that be? They were supposed to all be dead by now according to the alarmists.
2. So I suppose being able to breath isn't a civil right? I guess I'd better practice holding my breath.
If you allow them to do this they have a precedent. It, or something similar, will be implemented again. If you knew any history you would know "emergency" powers and protocols often are the basis of tyranny.
My views on seatbelt wearing and smoking? In your own car you have a right to decide whether to wear a seat belt or not. Smoking is your business, but it can be regulated on PUBLIC transportation. If you believe in a free society you have to believe the people have a right to determine their own actions as long as they hurt nobody else. I suspect you are a big enthusiast of banning anything you don't like and calling it the public welfare. But that is a statist mindset and I would ask you how you feel about, say, sodomy laws. I rather suspect you would find your inner libertarian at that point.
"Just try to be a decent person during a pandemic." A decent person doesn't force people to suffocate in masks or get pneumonia from them, or increase your risk of covid https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/02/health/surgeon-general-coronavirus-masks-risk-trnd/index.html https://cw.ua.edu/65524/top-stories/full-time-mask-wearing-brings-its-own-set-of-problems/ https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/04/150422121724.htm or insist they take a potentially dangerous shot just to salve their own fears.
If the shot and masking was effective there would be no need to compel obedience in this.
Be a decent person and remove your mask please.
And I don't give a damned about a youtube video of an alleged doctor. I have congestive heart failure and have a terrible time wearing the mask because of lack of oxygen. I have almost passed out on several occasions when trying to move about and wear a mask. There are plenty of others who have had similar experiences.
In fact an N95 mask, which is the only one that has any value in terms of stopping virus particles, causes a reduction in oxygen levels. https://www.ucc.org/daily_covid_19_brief_issue_39/
3. Yes, everything you've said IS fascistic. You do not understand the meaning of the word or how much your beliefs align with the National Socialists.
That I'm the first person to tell you that is simply an illustration of the failure of our educational system.
You are obsessed with Trump. He's no longer President. Get over it!
Cheering USA is hardly nationalism. You do not understand the difference between nationalism and patriotism.
Few say America is #1 in everything. You are imagining things. What patriots say is America is exceptional. And it is; ask any of the millions of people who have come here are or trying to get here. They aren't coming for the ambiance.
Yes, if people come here they should learn to speak English. We have an unique culture and our success is based on that culture. There is a reason Latin America has never produced a world leader since the Spanish and Portuguese. We have a distinctive culture and are entitled to keep it. Your easy internationalism will kill the goose that laid the golden egg. But I'm sure you are far too sophisticated for ideas like Nation States. Must be a citizen of the world, even though history shows such imperial ambitions lead to totalitarianism and poverty and warfare.
The nation state is probably the largest workable political structure. Or would you prefer to recreate the British Empire?
"Hate crimes skyrocketing from all of Trump’s manufactured grievances." ???? Care to prove that? A great many of these "hate crimes" were in fact faked. There is a whole website devoted to it. https://www.fakehatecrimes.org/
Here is another list https://unwoke.site/list-of-fake-hate-crimes/ or this https://dailycaller.com/2019/02/18/hoax-hate-crimes-list/
The FBI's claims of a rise in hate crimes is dubious to put it mildly. But I suppose you get your information from the SPLC.
I guess you forgot the fake Bubba Wallace "noose on door", or the fake Jussie Smollett attack.
I would add a great many of these hate crimes have happened to Asian and Jewish people and were not perpetrated by white conservatives aka "nationalists" but rather other minorities.
According to Justice dot gov:
There were maybe two who said this. You seem amazingly gullible, believing what you choose.
But again, this is all wide of the point. This was a discussion about Covid and the value or lack thereof of the protocols. You are obsessed with Trump; he lives rent free in your head.
But you are also monumentally wrong about Trump and about a great many things.
Will Jackson chimes in:
"If and when†the pandemic ends? They really got you primed to do this for the rest of your unnatural life huh😂
Michael Carl says:
Well, the hope was that it would go the way of polio, and enough folks would get vaccinated that we’d achieve herd immunity and effectively eradicate the disease. But it’s behaving more like seasonal flu now and vaccine hesitancy (thank you conservative media) has allowed it to proliferate and evolve into new strains, like the delta. Doesn’t look like Trump’s prediction that one day this virus is gonna just disappear is going to come to fruition. At least not any time soon. Which is weird because he’s such a truthful person, you know?
BTW, just a reminder: Trump is vaccinated, despite already having had the disease. All senators and vast majority of representatives
Will Jackson replies:
If you look it up actually vaccines are contraindicated
Once you’ve established that to yourself you might be left to wonder... why Does nobody care about natural immunity? Why Is the narrative pushing vaccination on groups which are known to have no use for it e.g. children and the naturally immune.
Old Carl retorts:
The data we have shows that the people who have the most immunity are those who have gotten ill and also got vaccinated. But variants play a role too. It’s important for kids to get vaccinated because they can become ill and also contribute to community spread to more at-risk individuals. True that they are less likely to die—I don’t think deaths in children have reached 1,000 total yet, but it’s still not nothing. Not to mention that your kids need to stay away from school for a while when it happens, which throws a huge wrench into the lives of working families like ours.
Additionally, I’m always amazed when I hear people promote natural immunity—as if the goal should be to actually get infected so that you’ll have that type of immunity. Not accusing you of that, but I’ve heard people insinuate that we should basically play Russian Roulette with our health in this way—sure, you might end up hospitalized, fighting for your life or get long Covid symptoms, but you’ll have immunity! At least for a while until a new variant emerges… It’s beyond preposterous.
I reply:
Michael Carl you say:
"It’s important for kids to get vaccinated because they can become ill and also contribute to community spread to more at-risk individuals."
Wrong. Children are very unlikely to catch or transmit this disease. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32430964/
There is no "evidence" that vaxxing is of any value to someone with natural immunity.
"Additionally, I’m always amazed when I hear people promote natural immunity—as if the goal should be to actually get infected so that you’ll have that type of immunity"
That is how herd immunity works. It's why every new bug isn't a pandemic. You know nothing about the science behind this.
A vaccination only aids in achieving herd immunity by giving the person the disease and allowing them to build antibodies. After that they are not communicable, or nearly not. With this particular gene therapy (it isn't a vaccine) the body is tricked into thinking it has covid.
And now we are told you are infectious anyway. If that is the case, what is the value of the jab? You can still catch covid and you can still die of covid and you can still pass along the infection. Meanwhile the virus is cycling inside vaccinated people, and getting stronger, more able to resist the antibodies produced.
It's no surprise the Delta Variant was born after the vaccination. We basically gave the disease steroids.
Michael Carl says:
Timothy Birdnow Whoah, before you start a your-side/
https://
Michael Carl replies:
Read up on the VAERS reporting system. People can report literally any adverse event no matter how unlikely it is to have any connection to the vaccine. It’s being used by anti-Vaxxers to scare people into thinking the vaccine is unsafe. Scrolling through the VAERS list doesn’t help you conclude anything. If you wanted to put in there that your penis swelled to ten times its normal size, you could, because someone actually did that. They’re unverified. It’s not an evidence-based study.
https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/covid-19-critical-thinking-health/dont-fall-vaers-scare-tactic
Thanks for showing your true colors. The only thing missing from your lengthy diatribe of debunked tropes is a defense of flat Earthers. But I’m afraid you’ll have to continue that battle with someone else bc there’s just too much crazy and not enough time.
I retort:
Michael Carl you say "People can report literally any adverse event no matter how unlikely it is to have any connection to the vaccine. It’s being used by anti-Vaxxers to scare people into thinking the vaccine is unsafe" On the contrary, VAERS is seriously UNDERREPORTED and always has been. That has been the principle complaint about the system.
BTW If what you claim is true why doesn't the CDC take steps to make it more accurate? They run it after all.
Probably because they don't want to draw attention to the system, which few people realize are in place.
Michael Carl you say:
"It’s important for kids to get vaccinated because they can become ill and also contribute to community spread to more at-risk individuals."
Wrong. Children are very unlikely to catch or transmit this disease. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32430964/
There is no "evidence" that vaxxing is of any value to someone with natural immunity.
"Additionally, I’m always amazed when I hear people promote natural immunity—as if the goal should be to actually get infected so that you’ll have that type of immunity"
That is how herd immunity works. It's why every new bug isn't a pandemic. You know nothing about the science behind this.
A vaccination only aids in achieving herd immunity by giving the person the disease and allowing them to build antibodies. After that they are not communicable, or nearly not. With this particular gene therapy (it isn't a vaccine) the body is tricked into thinking it has covid.
And now we are told you are infectious anyway. If that is the case, what is the value of the jab? You can still catch covid and you can still die of covid and you can still pass along the infection. Meanwhile the virus is cycling inside vaccinated people, and getting stronger, more able to resist the antibodies produced.
It's no surprise the Delta Variant was born after the vaccination. We basically gave the disease steroids.
Michael Carl thanks for showing YOUR true colors! You have not won a single debate point in our discussion so you launch an ad-hominem attack on me. Typical.
I figured you would eventually resort to that. You have neither real science nor logic nor facts on your side.
Oh and Michael Carl you say "The lesson here seems to be: don’t have a heart attack if you live in a Covid hot spot. Sorry, but just because you personally have been lucky doesn’t mean you should negate the very real experiences of others." yet YOU are doing exactly that, taking an atypical statistical anomalie and making it a general principle. I live in St. Louis which has been a hot spot and have spent a lot of time at hospitals and few are overloaded with Covid. You make a logical fallacy, assuming symmetry where there is none. But then you've been fairly illogical throughout this discussion.
So now CNBC, which had been going after President Trump from the beginning, is now the authority on the subject? And you worry about "right wing media".
That's rich Michael Carl. Do you want to bark up that tree?
The fact is the Administration was trying to get the CDC to offer accurate data, which they were not doing.
The CDC director admitted that the numbers were inflated since the CDC guidelines called for a death to be listed as covid for any reason. https://www.cnsnews.com/article/washington/melanie-arter/cdc-director-i-think-youre-correct-about-inflated-covid-death
The CDC was forced to admit it screwed up the numbers coming out of Florida, for instance. https://nypost.com/2021/08/11/cdc-amends-floridas-covid-19-numbers-after-inaccuracies/
Here is a peer reviewed study showing the CDC grossly inflated the numbers. https://jdfor2020.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/adf864_165a103206974fdbb14ada6bf8af1541.pdf
So much for your claim of scientific purity.
As for your obviously politically inspired claims Trump was manipulating numbers, well, first I would say the man hasn't been President for the better part of a year now and yet he's still living rent free in your heads.
Second, I would suggest it never did happen, even if Mr. Trump was trying to make it so. But it's clear the CDC WAS making it inflation happen. https://nationalfile.com/busted-cdc-inflated-covid-numbers-accused-of-violating-federal-law/
So in the end your point is both moot and incorrect.
"The groundbreaking peer-reviewed research…asserts that the CDC willfully violated multiple federal laws including the Information Quality Act, Paperwork Reduction Act, and Administrative Procedures Act at minimum. (Publishing Journal – Institute for Pure and Applied Knowledge / Public Health Policy Initiative) Most notably, the CDC illegally enacted new rules for data collection and reporting exclusively for COVID-19 that resulted in a 1,600% inflation of current COVID-19 fatality totals.
Sooo...
It was a nice try but a huge failure.
Michael Carl you say:
"Whoah, before you start a your-side/
Perhaps you are unaware that Mr. Trump is the reason we have the vaccine in the first place? Hmmm?
It was Trump spearheading the Operation Warp Speed that gave us this rather dangerous drug. But it was and remains YOUR BUDDIES who are pushing it on everyone, whether they agree with taking it or not.
Another fight on Facebook, this time with a Vax-troll who is probably being paid by the government.
First the Lion's Roar posted:
"The best way to take control over a people and control them utterly is to take a little of their freedom at a time, to erode rights by a thousand tiny and almost imperceptible reductions. In this way, the people will not see those rights and freedoms being removed until past the point at which these changes cannot be reversed."
~Pat Miller [Willfully Ignorant]Michael Carl said:
This original post is such childish fear mongering. We have freedom in America, but that doesn’t mean it’s a free-for-all where people can always do whatever they want. You’re still living in a society where the common good actually means something. These jagoffs watching Tucker Carlson and then acting like they’re the second coming of Sam Adams because they’re preserving freedom by refusing a vaccine should be ridiculed at every turn. SMH.
There are a number of back and forths where Michael Carl insults commenters.
I reply:
Michael Carl has to call people names and ridicule because he can't defend his position in the end. He's a typical modern liberal, incapable of actually making a logical argument.
OF COURSE large gatherings were going to see infection rates spike. But so what? What you fail to mention is the death rates. Covid is essentially a lethal cold, and even colds often come up as covid on the antibody tests. You should know that.
Mr. Carl snorts:
Timothy Birdnow Did I offend your delicate sensibilities? I’m sorry. Trust me, I’ve been called far worse than "jagoff†by angry folks on the right. And if you don’t understand my argument, which focuses on the common good being a priority in any/every society, then I’m not sure what to tell you. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make them drink. But I’m sure you’re the center of the universe too.
I retort:
"If this isn’t purely a public health measure, then please explain what it is they’re trying to "control.â€' Well, it forces you to OBEY a ridiculous or unwarranted rule that was not put in place by legal means. There was no act of Congress for example Michael Carl. I guess you don't realize that tyrannical governments always take actions "for the public interest". How do you think the Nazis gained total control of Germany? The Nazis had a series of health initiatives. https://perspectives.ushmm.org/collection/public-health-under-the-third-reich Every tyrant in history has acted ostensibly for "the public good". It's always "reasonable" measures designed to protect the public when in fact it compels obedience, trains the public like dogs. And the fact is most of these mandates are illegal. They have not been debated by our representatives, but rather have been imposed by a cadre of overreaching autocrats (like that Governor of Wisconsin or Mr. Biden himself). They are running roughshod over the Rule of Law because they were able to declare a state of emergency and impose imperial powers. But it doesn't make it valid. Perhaps you missed it,, but the Constitution guarantees us to be secure in our persons. (That means bodily integrity. You need to learn some history; health measures are and always have been a tool to backdoor despotism. Oh, and if doctors can lose their licenses for not sticking to the party line, how can that be a good thing? The government is the one telling them what they have to say. That isn't following Science but rather obeying orders. At Nuremberg we set the legal rule that following orders isn't a defense against war crimes charges. Well, International Law says you cannot force experimental drugs on people, which is what the Biden Administration is trying to do with the vaccine (which has not met the government's own standards and the government granted waivers from legal jeapordy). Oh, and there is a bit of research that suggests this vaccine may wind up doing a great deal of harm. Google Antibody Dependent Enhancement and Dr. Robert Malone (the guy who pioneered the mRNA vaccine and now thinks the Covid jab is a terrible idea.) .
Nick Bill Kepler adds:
Michael Carl you really do believe all the bs they shove down your throat. Just keep getting all of your information from CNN and MSNBC and continue your life of blissful ignorance. Those of us that don't just blindly follow because they say do will continue to standup for this country against the socialism they so desperately want to force on this country. Think for yourself for 5 min, that'll be plenty of time to what they are doing to this country.
Then back to me:
Michael Carl you say "And if you don’t understand my argument, which focuses on the common good being a priority in any/every society" I understand your argument full well. I don't think you understand it though. At what point does "the public good" terminate and our civil rights begin? Where do we end this collectivist fantasy of yours? The reality is this pandemic was no worse than the pandemic of '57 once you adjust for population growth. We did not impose such draconian policies then, largely because we had just finished fighting a war against fascism and didn't want to impose it on our own society. You and the other collectivist types are hell bent on making America fascist.
Back to Carl:
Here is the error in your logic, and I’ll try to make this brief: You say that tyrannical governments take action for the public interest. But here’s the thing—so do LITERALLY ALL GOVERNMENTS. Just because a government decides to mandate some public health policies during a pandemic does not mean it’s a slippery slope to a Holocaust! Since every country in the world has imposed public health measures to combat this virus, are we to assume now that every government is tyrannical? That’s what your logic brings us to. And to label Biden (And Wisconsin Governor Evers?) as autocrats less than a year after Trump supported an insurrection so that he himself could become an autocratic leader is truly breathtaking. Those are some serious mental gymnastics you’re putting yourself through. Biden has done nothing but champion democracy at home and abroad. If you’re angry about executive orders, I kind of understand, but all presidents, including Trump, use those, especially in an era when Congress is less able to legislate due to partisan bickering. Mandatory vaccines for school attendance and military service never used to be considered "tyranny,†so why now?
As for Malone, he’s one opinion that contradicts a much larger chorus of consensus and data. Attached is a more nuanced take that I’d encourage you to read to the end. This is exactly like climate deniers propping up the opinion of physicist Ivar Giaever. There will always always always be a contrarian opinion. Does not mean it’s the correct one just because you want it to be. That’s called confirmation bias and it’s been well documented in recent years on a variety of topics.
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/08/robert-malone-vaccine-inventor-vaccine-skeptic/619734/
Nick Bill Kappler Can you admit that it’s possible—just possible—that it’s actually you who is the one who has been brainwashed through false fears of socialism? For example, can you name me a single Democrat elected to national office right now who has expressed a desire to move all the means of production in our country out of the hands of private industry and into the government’s? I’m not trying to be a dick here.
I debunk him:
Michael Carl here is the error in YOUR logic. Just because all governments pass laws in the public interest in no way invalidates the possibility of laws being passed in haste during an emergency being used to establish dictatorial powers. Oliver Wendell Holmes famously stated "hard cases make bad law". And pandemics make very bad law. But it would be one thing if we were actually making LAW. We are not; we are instead passing edicts and order that are extra-legal. Or do you think that is how America is supposed to work? We have seen a massive power-grab by those in charge (primarily Democrats, but the Republicans are going along with it.) Most mask mandates and lockdowns had no legal justification - just orders given by governors or mayors or star-chamber-li
Michael Carl you say "Nick Bill KapplerCan you admit that it’s possible—just possible—that it’s actually you who is the one who has been brainwashed through false fears of socialism?' How so? Who controls the media? The media is on board with this lock-stock-and barrell. Facebook censors information that it deems false about this issue. The government promotes information and funds the CDC and others to promote this. The power to influence opinion is all on YOUR side. But facts are stubborn things, which is why the debate still rages despite the threats and intimidation of the governments.
Nick Bill Kapler adds:
Michael Carl there is more than once self proclaimed socialist elected to our government. You can have the easy ones, Berney Sanders and the squad. It doesn't have to meet every single criteria to still be socialist. If it makes Democrats feel better I'll call it Democratic Socialism like Berney does. They just keep expanding the federal government .which is supposed to be limited only to the power granted to it by the constitution, but they want it in everything. They want a day in everything you do and say. They are constantly trying to chip away at the second amendment, they are trying to censor what we can say, and what they can't get away with doing themselves they are using corporations to do it for them. Understanding the constitution and the freedom it gives us is not being brainwashed, making excuses to give them more power and chip away at our freedoms is. Why do you think they want to drastically expand the welfare state, because it's free and they care so much about us or to get as many people on it as possible? If they can do that it will allow them to expand the government and bureaucracy more and more. If you really don't think it ends with socialism then you're probably not paying attention to what they are trying to do.
Will Jackson responds:
First they said, it’s deadly. Then when nobody anyone knew was dying , they said, it’s about saving the NHS. Since then as we all know, some staggeringly insane figure has been put into enforcing all of the various restrictions and implementations
Personally I would Much rather have caught it and gone to hospital any time last year, and have tax money spent on saving me that way.
The real problem as I see it, is that I’m not enforcing this view on anyone and never have. Meanwhile people are encouraged to guilt trip one another into the vaccination plan, spouting off meaningless and flawed circular logic. I.e. you must be vaxxed so that I dont die because I don’t have faith in my own vax to save me.
I’d urge you
to check out the UK gov own figures for vaccine adverse events. If you
factor in CDCs estimate that less than 1% of events are reported, the
figures become even more shocking. Less than 1000 children died you
say? Well far more people have died from the vaccines, in the UK.
I’m no mathematician but it seems quite likely to me that this rollout for kids is set to directly kill more than it’ll save, and that’s before any long term or delayed side effects, which are still yet to be known.
Personally I think it’s pretty despicable and cowardly to let children receive potentially fatal injections that they provably do not need, based off the very shakey and unclear premise that it might make you incrementally safer, but whatever I guess.
I’m no mathematician but it seems quite likely to me that this rollout for kids is set to directly kill more than it’ll save, and that’s before any long term or delayed side effects, which are still yet to be known.
Personally I think it’s pretty despicable and cowardly to let children receive potentially fatal injections that they provably do not need, based off the very shakey and unclear premise that it might make you incrementally safer, but whatever I guess.
Michael Carl
Will Jacksonvery surprised you don’t know anyone who died from it. Five of my
wife’s cousins died from it very early on and my brother nearly died.
Hospitals in hot spots have been beyond capacity with Covid patients,
meaning they had to turn away other patients. The lesson here seems to
be: don’t have a heart attack if you live in a Covid hot spot. Sorry,
but just because you personally have been lucky doesn’t mean you should
negate the very real experiences of others. The internet is littered
with death-bed testimonials of people begging others to shed their
ignorance and get vaccinated and take other precautions; nurses
marveling over patients who refuse to believe they’re about to die from
Covid, insisting it must be from something else because Covid isn’t
real. 🤯 Thanks conservative media!
Michael Carl:
Timothy BirdnowComparing the 1957 pandemic to Covid isn’t fair because Covid would’ve been MUCH worse if we hadn’t instituted and followed the necessary precautions.
And I understand that there is a push and pull between public good and infringement of civil rights. But if you’re telling me that businesses requiring masks is an infringement of your rights, then I’ll say you don’t understand the word "rights.†I have no idea how you could misconstrue anything I said as fascism. You’ll find that much more easily in the jingoistic nationalism on display by the right, complete with their scapegoating of minority populations as the source of society’s ills. Look up the definition and it slides in pretty neatly.
I beg to differ:
Michael Carl you say "Comparing the 1957 pandemic to Covid isn’t fair because Covid would’ve been MUCH worse if we hadn’t instituted and followed the necessary precautions" Bull. You cannot prove that assertion in any way whatsoever. On the contrary, I would say there is evidence that these protocols actually made things worse. Look at the states with the strongest restrictions; most of them are in the top Covid numbers. And many of the countries that put on strong restrictions have done no better than those that did not. Sweden, which never shut down, is doing better than, say, Britain which did. Your claim is completely unsupportable. You say "But if you’re telling me that businesses requiring masks is an infringement of your rights" I'm saying governments making businesses require masks in a violation of our civil rights. Privately owned businesses are free to impose such restrictions TO A DEGREE. That was settled when the concept of "public accomodations" was put into law in the Civil Rights Act. As a result even businesses are limited in how far they can go with this. But most businesses are not making these rules - their government overlords are. Uh, dude, you have a fundamental right to breath. Masking prevents that in no small part. Just about everything you have said has been fascistic. You seem hell-bent on imposing your own fears on everyone else via government. And your ending is classic left-wing jargon "But if you’re telling me that businesses requiring masks is an infringement of your rights" You don't know what Fascism is, or Nationalism. What this dreaded "right wing" you so despise is are patriots - an old, established virtue. Nationalism is the worship of the state. That goes back to Jean Jacques Rousseau and is the cornerstone of both Marxism and Naziism, although the former is international in scope they still deify the state. And those promoting these radical restrictions on society are doing likewise. Uh, nobody is blaming minorities for societies ills. In fact, it is mostly white liberals who have screwed everything up. Minorities are tools they use. If you are going to hold strong opinions you need to understand what it is you espouse and what those with whom you disagree actuall believe.
Carl replies:
Timothy Birdnow okay, here we go. Ready?
1. I’ve got you on record saying that the Covid protocols actually made things worse. Preposterous as that is on its face, you also provided zero proof for that while blasting me for not being able to do the same from the opposite side. You don’t have to believe me. Ask any MD or epidemiologist if they think zero restrictions would’ve actually made things better. Then consider, just as one example, the MANY superspreader events for which they proved a spike in infections via contact tracing. I’ll drop one here but feel free to Google it for (many) more.
https://
2. Regarding Sweden, your information is definitely outdated. Yes, I remember hearing about it earlier in the pandemic. Now read this from August 2021:
https://
2. Saying that being forced to wear a mask in order to enter a business is a violation of your civil rights is such a gross exaggeration. Listen, if and when the pandemic ends, and then our government still insists on unilateral mask wearing, then I’d be inclined to agree, but we both know that won’t happen and also won’t lead to communism 😂so please stop. I’d love to know what your views are on seatbelt wearing or not being able to smoke cigarettes on public transportation.
3. You say that just about everything I’ve said is fascistic. Really? Because I’ve expressed these views many times and you’re literally the first person to ever call me a fascist. Don’t worry, I won’t lose any sleep over it. I guess in your view, any country that imposes any sort of policy on mask wearing or vaccine promotion is a fascist country. That’s quite a wide net! As for the nationalists—ma
I reply:Michael Carl:
Timothy BirdnowComparing the 1957 pandemic to Covid isn’t fair because Covid would’ve been MUCH worse if we hadn’t instituted and followed the necessary precautions.
And I understand that there is a push and pull between public good and infringement of civil rights. But if you’re telling me that businesses requiring masks is an infringement of your rights, then I’ll say you don’t understand the word "rights.†I have no idea how you could misconstrue anything I said as fascism. You’ll find that much more easily in the jingoistic nationalism on display by the right, complete with their scapegoating of minority populations as the source of society’s ills. Look up the definition and it slides in pretty neatly.
I beg to differ:
Michael Carl you say "Comparing the 1957 pandemic to Covid isn’t fair because Covid would’ve been MUCH worse if we hadn’t instituted and followed the necessary precautions" Bull. You cannot prove that assertion in any way whatsoever. On the contrary, I would say there is evidence that these protocols actually made things worse. Look at the states with the strongest restrictions; most of them are in the top Covid numbers. And many of the countries that put on strong restrictions have done no better than those that did not. Sweden, which never shut down, is doing better than, say, Britain which did. Your claim is completely unsupportable. You say "But if you’re telling me that businesses requiring masks is an infringement of your rights" I'm saying governments making businesses require masks in a violation of our civil rights. Privately owned businesses are free to impose such restrictions TO A DEGREE. That was settled when the concept of "public accomodations" was put into law in the Civil Rights Act. As a result even businesses are limited in how far they can go with this. But most businesses are not making these rules - their government overlords are. Uh, dude, you have a fundamental right to breath. Masking prevents that in no small part. Just about everything you have said has been fascistic. You seem hell-bent on imposing your own fears on everyone else via government. And your ending is classic left-wing jargon "But if you’re telling me that businesses requiring masks is an infringement of your rights" You don't know what Fascism is, or Nationalism. What this dreaded "right wing" you so despise is are patriots - an old, established virtue. Nationalism is the worship of the state. That goes back to Jean Jacques Rousseau and is the cornerstone of both Marxism and Naziism, although the former is international in scope they still deify the state. And those promoting these radical restrictions on society are doing likewise. Uh, nobody is blaming minorities for societies ills. In fact, it is mostly white liberals who have screwed everything up. Minorities are tools they use. If you are going to hold strong opinions you need to understand what it is you espouse and what those with whom you disagree actuall believe.
Carl replies:
Timothy Birdnow okay, here we go. Ready?
1. I’ve got you on record saying that the Covid protocols actually made things worse. Preposterous as that is on its face, you also provided zero proof for that while blasting me for not being able to do the same from the opposite side. You don’t have to believe me. Ask any MD or epidemiologist if they think zero restrictions would’ve actually made things better. Then consider, just as one example, the MANY superspreader events for which they proved a spike in infections via contact tracing. I’ll drop one here but feel free to Google it for (many) more.
https://
2. Regarding Sweden, your information is definitely outdated. Yes, I remember hearing about it earlier in the pandemic. Now read this from August 2021:
https://
2. Saying that being forced to wear a mask in order to enter a business is a violation of your civil rights is such a gross exaggeration. Listen, if and when the pandemic ends, and then our government still insists on unilateral mask wearing, then I’d be inclined to agree, but we both know that won’t happen and also won’t lead to communism 😂so please stop. I’d love to know what your views are on seatbelt wearing or not being able to smoke cigarettes on public transportation.
3. You say that just about everything I’ve said is fascistic. Really? Because I’ve expressed these views many times and you’re literally the first person to ever call me a fascist. Don’t worry, I won’t lose any sleep over it. I guess in your view, any country that imposes any sort of policy on mask wearing or vaccine promotion is a fascist country. That’s quite a wide net! As for the nationalists—ma
Michael Carl here we go, ready?
1. I did not say that the protocols did nothing. I did say they cannot be proven to have accomplished anything. You apparently don't understand the difference.
I don't care overmuch about taking popularity polls. What you fail to do is provide any concrete proof that any of this has done a damned thing. I pointed out that the states and countries with the highest infection rates have often been the strictest. I guess it was just bad luck New York suffered such terrible infection rates?
2. Sweden. Sweden has been in the middle of the pack in Europe all along (which is why you alarmists have had to dishonestly compare it to the rest of Scandinavia, of which Sweden is both far larger in terms of population and very open to travel and immigration. Sweden got it's primary wave of infections from tourism from Italy, I would add.)
And I guess you missed this little gem:
"Unlike most other countries, Sweden uses "date of incidence" figures for its official death toll, so these "date of reporting" figures will not match official data for the most recent days. Correction: Between August 11 and September 15 2021 new cases and new deaths data for Sweden was displayed incorrectly due to a programming error. This was corrected on September 16, 2021."
https://ig.ft.com/coronavirus-chart/
Sweden has done fairly well throughout this, better than much of the stricter parts of Europe.
How can that be? They were supposed to all be dead by now according to the alarmists.
2. So I suppose being able to breath isn't a civil right? I guess I'd better practice holding my breath.
If you allow them to do this they have a precedent. It, or something similar, will be implemented again. If you knew any history you would know "emergency" powers and protocols often are the basis of tyranny.
My views on seatbelt wearing and smoking? In your own car you have a right to decide whether to wear a seat belt or not. Smoking is your business, but it can be regulated on PUBLIC transportation. If you believe in a free society you have to believe the people have a right to determine their own actions as long as they hurt nobody else. I suspect you are a big enthusiast of banning anything you don't like and calling it the public welfare. But that is a statist mindset and I would ask you how you feel about, say, sodomy laws. I rather suspect you would find your inner libertarian at that point.
"Just try to be a decent person during a pandemic." A decent person doesn't force people to suffocate in masks or get pneumonia from them, or increase your risk of covid https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/02/health/surgeon-general-coronavirus-masks-risk-trnd/index.html https://cw.ua.edu/65524/top-stories/full-time-mask-wearing-brings-its-own-set-of-problems/ https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/04/150422121724.htm or insist they take a potentially dangerous shot just to salve their own fears.
If the shot and masking was effective there would be no need to compel obedience in this.
Be a decent person and remove your mask please.
And I don't give a damned about a youtube video of an alleged doctor. I have congestive heart failure and have a terrible time wearing the mask because of lack of oxygen. I have almost passed out on several occasions when trying to move about and wear a mask. There are plenty of others who have had similar experiences.
In fact an N95 mask, which is the only one that has any value in terms of stopping virus particles, causes a reduction in oxygen levels. https://www.ucc.org/daily_covid_19_brief_issue_39/
3. Yes, everything you've said IS fascistic. You do not understand the meaning of the word or how much your beliefs align with the National Socialists.
That I'm the first person to tell you that is simply an illustration of the failure of our educational system.
You are obsessed with Trump. He's no longer President. Get over it!
Cheering USA is hardly nationalism. You do not understand the difference between nationalism and patriotism.
Few say America is #1 in everything. You are imagining things. What patriots say is America is exceptional. And it is; ask any of the millions of people who have come here are or trying to get here. They aren't coming for the ambiance.
Yes, if people come here they should learn to speak English. We have an unique culture and our success is based on that culture. There is a reason Latin America has never produced a world leader since the Spanish and Portuguese. We have a distinctive culture and are entitled to keep it. Your easy internationalism will kill the goose that laid the golden egg. But I'm sure you are far too sophisticated for ideas like Nation States. Must be a citizen of the world, even though history shows such imperial ambitions lead to totalitarianism and poverty and warfare.
The nation state is probably the largest workable political structure. Or would you prefer to recreate the British Empire?
"Hate crimes skyrocketing from all of Trump’s manufactured grievances." ???? Care to prove that? A great many of these "hate crimes" were in fact faked. There is a whole website devoted to it. https://www.fakehatecrimes.org/
Here is another list https://unwoke.site/list-of-fake-hate-crimes/ or this https://dailycaller.com/2019/02/18/hoax-hate-crimes-list/
The FBI's claims of a rise in hate crimes is dubious to put it mildly. But I suppose you get your information from the SPLC.
I guess you forgot the fake Bubba Wallace "noose on door", or the fake Jussie Smollett attack.
I would add a great many of these hate crimes have happened to Asian and Jewish people and were not perpetrated by white conservatives aka "nationalists" but rather other minorities.
According to Justice dot gov:
https://www.justice.gov/hatecrimes/hate-crime-statistics
Offenses by Crime Category: Known Offenders: Location Type: Among the 11,129 hate crime offenses reported: Crimes against persons: 69.6%; Crimes against property: 28.2%; Crimes against society: 2.2%; Of the 6,780 known offenders: 55.1% were White; 21.2% were Black or African American; 15.7% race unknown; Other races accounted for the remaining known offenders."
So of them all only a little over half were by white people. But it's all white nationalism and Trump!
Right.
Did it ever once occur to you that many of these hate crimes were being done by the socialists? They were the ones rioting the entire Trump Presidency.
Did you personally see hatred for immigrants or blacks at Trump rallies? You BELIEVE it happened. I do not. I don't know from personal experience because I've never attended one, but I do know people who have and they say it is a lie. I believe them.
"Plenty of black Capitol police officers recount being called the N word repeatedly by the insurrectionist
There were maybe two who said this. You seem amazingly gullible, believing what you choose.
But again, this is all wide of the point. This was a discussion about Covid and the value or lack thereof of the protocols. You are obsessed with Trump; he lives rent free in your head.
But you are also monumentally wrong about Trump and about a great many things.
Will Jackson chimes in:
"If and when†the pandemic ends? They really got you primed to do this for the rest of your unnatural life huh😂
Michael Carl says:
Well, the hope was that it would go the way of polio, and enough folks would get vaccinated that we’d achieve herd immunity and effectively eradicate the disease. But it’s behaving more like seasonal flu now and vaccine hesitancy (thank you conservative media) has allowed it to proliferate and evolve into new strains, like the delta. Doesn’t look like Trump’s prediction that one day this virus is gonna just disappear is going to come to fruition. At least not any time soon. Which is weird because he’s such a truthful person, you know?
BTW, just a reminder: Trump is vaccinated, despite already having had the disease. All senators and vast majority of representatives
Will Jackson replies:
If you look it up actually vaccines are contraindicated
Once you’ve established that to yourself you might be left to wonder... why Does nobody care about natural immunity? Why Is the narrative pushing vaccination on groups which are known to have no use for it e.g. children and the naturally immune.
Old Carl retorts:
The data we have shows that the people who have the most immunity are those who have gotten ill and also got vaccinated. But variants play a role too. It’s important for kids to get vaccinated because they can become ill and also contribute to community spread to more at-risk individuals. True that they are less likely to die—I don’t think deaths in children have reached 1,000 total yet, but it’s still not nothing. Not to mention that your kids need to stay away from school for a while when it happens, which throws a huge wrench into the lives of working families like ours.
Additionally, I’m always amazed when I hear people promote natural immunity—as if the goal should be to actually get infected so that you’ll have that type of immunity. Not accusing you of that, but I’ve heard people insinuate that we should basically play Russian Roulette with our health in this way—sure, you might end up hospitalized, fighting for your life or get long Covid symptoms, but you’ll have immunity! At least for a while until a new variant emerges… It’s beyond preposterous.
I reply:
Michael Carl you say:
"It’s important for kids to get vaccinated because they can become ill and also contribute to community spread to more at-risk individuals."
Wrong. Children are very unlikely to catch or transmit this disease. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32430964/
There is no "evidence" that vaxxing is of any value to someone with natural immunity.
"Additionally, I’m always amazed when I hear people promote natural immunity—as if the goal should be to actually get infected so that you’ll have that type of immunity"
That is how herd immunity works. It's why every new bug isn't a pandemic. You know nothing about the science behind this.
A vaccination only aids in achieving herd immunity by giving the person the disease and allowing them to build antibodies. After that they are not communicable, or nearly not. With this particular gene therapy (it isn't a vaccine) the body is tricked into thinking it has covid.
And now we are told you are infectious anyway. If that is the case, what is the value of the jab? You can still catch covid and you can still die of covid and you can still pass along the infection. Meanwhile the virus is cycling inside vaccinated people, and getting stronger, more able to resist the antibodies produced.
It's no surprise the Delta Variant was born after the vaccination. We basically gave the disease steroids.
Michael Carl says:
Timothy Birdnow Whoah, before you start a your-side/
https://
Michael Carl replies:
Read up on the VAERS reporting system. People can report literally any adverse event no matter how unlikely it is to have any connection to the vaccine. It’s being used by anti-Vaxxers to scare people into thinking the vaccine is unsafe. Scrolling through the VAERS list doesn’t help you conclude anything. If you wanted to put in there that your penis swelled to ten times its normal size, you could, because someone actually did that. They’re unverified. It’s not an evidence-based study.
https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/covid-19-critical-thinking-health/dont-fall-vaers-scare-tactic
Thanks for showing your true colors. The only thing missing from your lengthy diatribe of debunked tropes is a defense of flat Earthers. But I’m afraid you’ll have to continue that battle with someone else bc there’s just too much crazy and not enough time.
I retort:
Michael Carl you say "People can report literally any adverse event no matter how unlikely it is to have any connection to the vaccine. It’s being used by anti-Vaxxers to scare people into thinking the vaccine is unsafe" On the contrary, VAERS is seriously UNDERREPORTED and always has been. That has been the principle complaint about the system.
BTW If what you claim is true why doesn't the CDC take steps to make it more accurate? They run it after all.
Probably because they don't want to draw attention to the system, which few people realize are in place.
Michael Carl you say:
"It’s important for kids to get vaccinated because they can become ill and also contribute to community spread to more at-risk individuals."
Wrong. Children are very unlikely to catch or transmit this disease. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32430964/
There is no "evidence" that vaxxing is of any value to someone with natural immunity.
"Additionally, I’m always amazed when I hear people promote natural immunity—as if the goal should be to actually get infected so that you’ll have that type of immunity"
That is how herd immunity works. It's why every new bug isn't a pandemic. You know nothing about the science behind this.
A vaccination only aids in achieving herd immunity by giving the person the disease and allowing them to build antibodies. After that they are not communicable, or nearly not. With this particular gene therapy (it isn't a vaccine) the body is tricked into thinking it has covid.
And now we are told you are infectious anyway. If that is the case, what is the value of the jab? You can still catch covid and you can still die of covid and you can still pass along the infection. Meanwhile the virus is cycling inside vaccinated people, and getting stronger, more able to resist the antibodies produced.
It's no surprise the Delta Variant was born after the vaccination. We basically gave the disease steroids.
Michael Carl thanks for showing YOUR true colors! You have not won a single debate point in our discussion so you launch an ad-hominem attack on me. Typical.
I figured you would eventually resort to that. You have neither real science nor logic nor facts on your side.
Oh and Michael Carl you say "The lesson here seems to be: don’t have a heart attack if you live in a Covid hot spot. Sorry, but just because you personally have been lucky doesn’t mean you should negate the very real experiences of others." yet YOU are doing exactly that, taking an atypical statistical anomalie and making it a general principle. I live in St. Louis which has been a hot spot and have spent a lot of time at hospitals and few are overloaded with Covid. You make a logical fallacy, assuming symmetry where there is none. But then you've been fairly illogical throughout this discussion.
So now CNBC, which had been going after President Trump from the beginning, is now the authority on the subject? And you worry about "right wing media".
That's rich Michael Carl. Do you want to bark up that tree?
The fact is the Administration was trying to get the CDC to offer accurate data, which they were not doing.
The CDC director admitted that the numbers were inflated since the CDC guidelines called for a death to be listed as covid for any reason. https://www.cnsnews.com/article/washington/melanie-arter/cdc-director-i-think-youre-correct-about-inflated-covid-death
The CDC was forced to admit it screwed up the numbers coming out of Florida, for instance. https://nypost.com/2021/08/11/cdc-amends-floridas-covid-19-numbers-after-inaccuracies/
Here is a peer reviewed study showing the CDC grossly inflated the numbers. https://jdfor2020.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/adf864_165a103206974fdbb14ada6bf8af1541.pdf
So much for your claim of scientific purity.
As for your obviously politically inspired claims Trump was manipulating numbers, well, first I would say the man hasn't been President for the better part of a year now and yet he's still living rent free in your heads.
Second, I would suggest it never did happen, even if Mr. Trump was trying to make it so. But it's clear the CDC WAS making it inflation happen. https://nationalfile.com/busted-cdc-inflated-covid-numbers-accused-of-violating-federal-law/
So in the end your point is both moot and incorrect.
"The groundbreaking peer-reviewed research…asserts that the CDC willfully violated multiple federal laws including the Information Quality Act, Paperwork Reduction Act, and Administrative Procedures Act at minimum. (Publishing Journal – Institute for Pure and Applied Knowledge / Public Health Policy Initiative) Most notably, the CDC illegally enacted new rules for data collection and reporting exclusively for COVID-19 that resulted in a 1,600% inflation of current COVID-19 fatality totals.
Sooo...
It was a nice try but a huge failure.
Michael Carl you say:
"Whoah, before you start a your-side/
Perhaps you are unaware that Mr. Trump is the reason we have the vaccine in the first place? Hmmm?
It was Trump spearheading the Operation Warp Speed that gave us this rather dangerous drug. But it was and remains YOUR BUDDIES who are pushing it on everyone, whether they agree with taking it or not.
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