Arguing with Idiots, Covid Edition

Timothy Birdnow

On the group Watts Up With That on Facebook I had an interesting exchange with a person who clearly is a troll of sorts. Todd Huffman posted this llink to a Scientific American article (blocked by a paywall) which alleges to "debunk" claims that Covid 19 death rates are inflated.

Todd Huffman states:

Well, you guys think science is political. And it isn't actually. Not a good idea to throw out data you don't like

I respond:

Todd Huffman science was politicized when government took over most funding of it in the late '70's. Money is king everywhere, but especially in science where you either are funded or you fade away. The end result is funding goes to those who produce work pleasing to big government which means there is a built-in bias in all modern science. He who pays the rent is the boss. Governments want to acquire more power, more control, and more money. Produce "science" which aids that and you will get funding. And of course there is bias in how science is promoted. If two different studies contradict each other the one predicting doom will get all the attention while the one that says "well, yeah there's a problem but it's not that bad" will be dismissed. Everyone wants to make a big splash. Nobody wants to come up with negative data, for example.I would point out that George Floyd may well have been classified a Covid victim had his case not been so heavily publicized; he had Covid and he died of not being able to breathe.Oh, and any science article which refers to those with whom it disagrees as "fantasists" is nothing but propaganda.

Todd Huffman answers:

Timothy BirdnowThe problem is that it is hard to explain all those excess deaths if, as has been touted by many on here, there actually isn't anything going on. The jump in excess deaths points out both the direct and indirect effects of something happening. It could be that someone dies of, say, heart disease when they otherwise wouldn't have because they didn't get medical treatment as soon as they otherwise would have. But as one unpicks such explainations the nagging problem is - Why THIS year? Why is this year so special? The excess deaths are an over-count if your concern is the mortality rate of this specific agent - COVID-19, this is bracketed from below by the deaths directly attributed to COVID-19 as multiple independent sources who better understand this data report that those numbers are undercounts. The true answer would be between those figures (excess deaths and deaths directly attributed to COVID).

As for the big-money argument. It's an attractive argument to be sure. The problem is though that nurses aren't really that well-paid. And they are worked really very hard. And they are cracking under the strain of something that is filling up ICU beds all over the USA (and the world). Also, countries with fully socialized medicine, where there really isn't a profit motive, are also being strained to their limits at the same time. They might not be as terrible at dealing with the problem as the USA, but the strain is still there.

The problem of money in Medicine is a huge one, and one you won't solve with a private medical industry, ever, because that is exactly the POINT of priviatized medicine....mak

I reply:

Todd Huffman, you say "But as one unpicks such explainations the nagging problem is - Why THIS year? Why is this year so special? The excess deaths are an over-count if your concern is the mortality rate of this specific agent - COVID-19, this is bracketed from below by the deaths directly attributed to COVID-19" but the death rate for influenza and other such illnesses has dropped off, while Covid rates are up. What does that tell us? Seems to me it says Covid is being blamed for deaths from influenza and other such illnesses.

I'm not saying there is no disease, nor do I think are most people here. Just that it's being padded. I believe that once adjusted for population growth and inflation rates this is no worse than the '57 or '68 pandemics. What is different is the way we responded to it (with panic).

I would point out I've been waiting for eye surgery for months now, and other people have had to wait for surgeries for more serious things. There is a lot less treatment going on these days. I can't get in to see my lung doctor, for example.

I know a lot of nurses and most of them have been laid off by Covid, not are being overworked. Most of them tell me they aren't worried much about it. Yes, some in key spots - mainly ICU's where anyone suspected of Covid is sent, are over busy but the others are not busy at all. I did a stint in the hospital in October and they thought I might have it. I was told I'd be shipped up to ICU if I did. THAT is guaranteed to fill up a unit.

Talk of overcrowded ICU's doesn't really speak to this for that reason; it's natural they are full if we are putting anyone with a positive test there.

You also say "Also, countries with fully socialized medicine, where there really isn't a profit motive, are also being strained to their limits at the same time. They might not be as terrible at dealing with the problem as the USA, but the strain is still there."

 These countries have a completely different approach to the problem yet are at the same time busting at the seams with it. That suggests the approach itself is bad.

I get your point, but when you are a hammer everything looks like a nail. Everybody is following the guidelines from the WHO and other central authorities, and are getting the same results. On the other hand you had Sweden, which did nothing at all and yet is not seeing the high numbers of earlier. In fact Sweden has done better without any precautions than a number of other European countries. (It is often compared with Norway and Denmark, nations quite dissimilar in terms of the age of the population and the fact that a lot of Swedes visited Italy early on.) In point of fact there does not appear to be any real correlation between masking and lockdowns and the infection rate. IF any of this stuff were valid then it would be obvious. I think this speaks volumes about the claims being made - and puts the whole thing in doubt.

Socialized medicine perhaps has no profit motive, but it works as if it does as it's funding comes in the same way. America's system is not laizzes Faire, after all, but rather a quasi socialized entitity, so I don't know if there is much distinction. Certainly government is intimately involved in both, which undoubtedly influences how these entities count the cases and assign death causes.

Bear in mind, private medical research is what has given us the vaccine in the first place, and why the United States has been a leader in all medical research. Bureaucrats would still be arguing about what color the vaccine should be. Money in medicine itself isn't a problem. It's money directed in the service of the few. When government is paying they get what they want. And they want a lot.

And in this instance they want to use this as a tool to promote greater power and authority and more money. Just look at this latest "Covid Relief" package! That was a godsend to government because they could never have squandered so much money had they not had this "crisis" to allow them to do so.

At any rate, thanks for a courteous reply. We just disagree.

Oh, I would point out too that a number of cases of Legionnaires has been misdiagnosed as Covid. https://www.gpb.org/news/2020/08/04/how-legionnaires-disease-resembles-covid-19-and-how-the-pandemic-may-result-in-more And about the money in private healthcare, one must ask what forces are at work in socialized medicine to provide decent care? At least with private healthcare there is a profit motive to push for providing better care. In socialized systems the patient is pretty much nothing but a widget. In Britain, for example, you have to go blind in one eye from macular degeneration before they will give you an Avastin shot to save the other eye. In America you get both eyes treated because the doctors make a profit. In Britain they want to save money. Of the two money in private enterprise is at least competititve. I would add that I know of people who have lost limbs and even died at the VA hospitals because there was no profit in treating them. And again, America doesn't really have a free market healthcare system thanks to Mecicare and Obamacare. I myself was "death paneled" by my Obamacare policy because I needed a defibrilator for a time. I wrote about it here. https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2012/06/the_valley_of_the_shadow_of_deathpanels.html It's what happens when any overly large entity is making these decisions. When you empower government to do it you are handing over your own life to bean counters.


Willis Eschenbach adds:

Here's the CDC Guidance:

===
"In cases where a definite diagnosis of COVID–19 cannot be made, but it is suspected or likely (e.g., the circumstances are compelling within a reasonable degree of certainty), it is acceptable to report COVID–19 on a death certificate as "probable” or "presumed.”
===

And of course, these are also put on the list of "COVID deaths".

Mitchell McAleer adds:

Heart disease deaths and cancer deaths declined by > 50% 2019 / 2020 winter season, it's a fucking miracle!!, NOPE, it's morons like you lying about covid death IFR. W H O CDC changed reporting SOP in march 24 this year, making the current CDC covid death count artificially hyper inflated nowhere near relevant compared to influenza IFR recorded over the last few decades.

Bridgit Huddig adds:

I have a question. Why is the USA all cause mortality not anything unusual? As of Dec 23rd deaths for the year are: 2,851,438

2019 was 2,854,838 all cause mortality (Edit: citation found)
2018 was 2,839,205 all cause mortality
2017 was 2,813,503 all cause mortality
2016 was 2,744,248 all cause mortality

Todays number:
https:// www.cdc.gov/ nchs/nvss/vsrr/ covid_weekly/ index.htm
2018
https:// www.cdc.gov/ nchs/fastats/ deaths.htm
2017 and 2016
https:// www.cdc.gov/ nchs/data/nvsr/ nvsr68/ nvsr68_06-508.pd f
Edit: 2019 citation found
2,854,838 registered deaths.
https:// www.cdc.gov/ nchs/products/ databriefs/ db395.htm

Edward W Wagner adds

https://redstate.com/bonchie/2020/12/26/minnesota-lawmakers-say-covid-deaths-heavily-inflated-after-review-n300283\ ad

Tam Renee adds:

A person can go into the hospital, test positive for Influenza, negative for CV, but the symptoms the person has are "covid-like.” They can actually still be marked as a covid case, because their symptoms are that of CV. If they then pass away, that is marked as a CV death. The hospitals make a lot more money if that is a CV patient and not an flu patient.

Tim replies:

George Floyd tested positive for Covid and died of not being able to breathe. He was no doubt one of the rare instances where Covid was NOT blamed for his death on official documents.

Yes there is a pandemic but is it as bad as claimed? I do not think it any worse than the 1957 bug, or the '68. What is different is how we are counting the cases and death rates, and how we responded. As for vaccines, they are already saying Covid is mutating and how long will the vaccine be good for if that is the case? Seems to me we are setting up an eternal program here.A vaccine is fine if it works but it will probably not put things back to normal. The fact is, had we let the young and healthy catch it we'd be out of the woods by now. Sweden is doing pretty well, despite having refused to follow the insane economy-busting

Posted by: Timothy Birdnow at 09:56 AM | Comments (1) | Add Comment
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